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If the universe's best Space Marines couldn't have a fleet or ships to get to where they need to go wouldn't they be useless? Also if an entire company of SMs is on a barge that explodes and breaks up in space after being pummeled by weapons... could they still be badass and wreck face?

It seems very little attention is paid to Space Battles and spaceships in the 40k universe and as if they are a minor sideshow. In reality wouldn't something like 95% of the important engagements all take part in space since I mean this IS a universe where there are countless planets after all and you need to get to them. And in that case wouldn't crack battleship crews be more valuable/useful than the space marines?

They are the most important battles in most of the fluff that I have read. Its just that the focus isn't on them since most of us play 40k instead of BFG.

DorianGray wrote:
If the universe's best Space Marines couldn't have a fleet or ships to get to where they need to go wouldn't they be useless? Also if an entire company of SMs is on a barge that explodes and breaks up in space after being pummeled by weapons... could they still be badass and wreck face?

It seems very little attention is paid to Space Battles and spaceships in the 40k universe and as if they are a minor sideshow. In reality wouldn't something like 95% of the important engagements all take part in space since I mean this IS a universe where there are countless planets after all and you need to get to them. And in that case wouldn't crack battleship crews be more valuable/useful than the space marines?

The game focuses on tactical level ground combat, and it's something that's much easier to imagine and get into, so that's what they focus on (GW also no longer sells a space combat game). The concept of the 40k universe breaks down very rapidly once you start thinking about how any of this stuff would actually work, it's really a middle-ages Fantasy universe with a Scifi skin, and that's how it should be treated and approached. Yes, space battles would be much more prominent, but they'd also work differently than 40k treats them (which is basically Age-of-Sail in SPAAAAAAAACE), but at the same time we wouldn't have dudes running about with swords either

If you really think about it...

Even if you had the baddest best most feared space marines ... if you had zero space superiority or control and they are stuck on just a normal planet anyone with ships could just orbital bombard the planet and kill all of them.

Can any space marine with terminator armor withstand a Nova Cannon shell direct to their face? Or any ship-based weapon like macro-cannons for that matter?

Since you need ships to basically do ANYTHING in this 40k universe - wouldn't the majority of the focus of the military of the Imperium be on their NAVY? Like 75%+ of their focus should go to their Fleet.

Right?

In a lot of ways it is, we just don't hear about it, the Imperial Fleet has tens of millions of vessels with tens or hundreds of thousands of crew each. It's just a secondary part of the universe when the core game focuses on tactical ground combat.

In the same way, Space Marines really would be completely irrelevant once you bring the scale of the universe into focus, who needs Space Marines when there's literally three hundred million guardsmen per Space Marine? Why are people fighting with swords in an age where tanks, artillery, and automatic weapons exist? etc ad nauseum

The 40k universe breaks down very rapidly once actually thought about

As Vaktathi says, you really shouldn't try to apply "realism" to anything in 40k, because then it all just falls apart. The two main reasons that space-borne combat does not play as big a role in 40k as it should is because A) that's the aspect of Battlefleet Gothic, a separate game entirely and B) none of those units found in the Codices mean squat when the cruiser they were on gets disintegrated from 35,000 kilometers away.

To answer the question about Space Marines still being badasses when their battle barge gets shattered? No, no they aren't. They're all dead now, or trapped in the burning hulk of the barge, many tens of thousands of kilometers away from the planet they were trying to get to in the first place. As far as this battle is concerned (and, quite probably, any battle in the future), they are non-starters.

Do you guys think they will bring back Battlefleet Gothic in time for the 13th crusade that will be happening (again) next year?

It would be cool to have the boardgame again, as it was one of the coolest Specialist Games products they ever released, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

DorianGray wrote:
Do you guys think they will bring back Battlefleet Gothic in time for the 13th crusade that will be happening (again) next year?

I don't expect them to be able produce bfg in such a way that can compete vs X-wing.
I played both and BfG game play is extremely clunky compared to X-wing and that even on top of inferior models and setting.

DorianGray wrote:
If the universe's best Space Marines couldn't have a fleet or ships to get to where they need to go wouldn't they be useless? Also if an entire company of SMs is on a barge that explodes and breaks up in space after being pummeled by weapons... could they still be badass and wreck face?

It seems very little attention is paid to Space Battles and spaceships in the 40k universe and as if they are a minor sideshow. In reality wouldn't something like 95% of the important engagements all take part in space since I mean this IS a universe where there are countless planets after all and you need to get to them. And in that case wouldn't crack battleship crews be more valuable/useful than the space marines?

It all boils down to this...

The Big Red One by Samuel Fuller wrote:Pins on maps aren't moved when tanks take ground, only when the man with the rifle takes and holds it.

It doesn't matter which fleet wins the space battle if the victor can't control the planet.

But then again most battles aren't fought to to control a planet they just try to eradicate a deadly threat or defend their home.
Both can be done better with a space armada.

 oldzoggy wrote:
But then again most battles aren't fought to to control a planet they just try to eradicate a deadly threat or defend their home.
Both can be done better with a space armada.

I'm pretty sure you really don't want Macro Shells or Nova Lances randomly bombarding down into territory you want to keep.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
But then again most battles aren't fought to to control a planet they just try to eradicate a deadly threat or defend their home.
Both can be done better with a space armada.

I'm pretty sure you really don't want Macro Shells or Nova Lances randomly bombarding down into territory you want to keep.

Given how often the Imperium ends of obliterating everything anyway...

I mean, what on earth are ground forces doing fighting Daemons on warp tainted planets and the like

I was surprised to see that Traitor's Hate takes a lot of space to tell about the space battles going on in the system. So, at least they are not forgetting that part, it's just that most of the time someone wants to get something from a planet and not outright destroy it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
But then again most battles aren't fought to to control a planet they just try to eradicate a deadly threat or defend their home.
Both can be done better with a space armada.

I'm pretty sure you really don't want Macro Shells or Nova Lances randomly bombarding down into territory you want to keep.

Given how often the Imperium ends of obliterating everything anyway...

I mean, what on earth are ground forces doing fighting Daemons on warp tainted planets and the like

Closing warp portals.

nareik wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
But then again most battles aren't fought to to control a planet they just try to eradicate a deadly threat or defend their home.
Both can be done better with a space armada.

I'm pretty sure you really don't want Macro Shells or Nova Lances randomly bombarding down into territory you want to keep.

Given how often the Imperium ends of obliterating everything anyway...

I mean, what on earth are ground forces doing fighting Daemons on warp tainted planets and the like

Closing warp portals.

I mean, if thats what we're talking about, one would think macro shells and nova cannons would be perfectly suited for such things

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
But then again most battles aren't fought to to control a planet they just try to eradicate a deadly threat or defend their home.
Both can be done better with a space armada.

I'm pretty sure you really don't want Macro Shells or Nova Lances randomly bombarding down into territory you want to keep.

Nope you don't but you don't want those xenos ships near your planet in the first place.
Most planets are already doomed when enemies of the imperium have landed on the planet regardless whether they succeed in killing the invader.

Whether it's a macro-cannon shell or the guns of an artillery regiment from the Death Korps of Kreig, the end results are the same for the targeted area.

Game wise I would say yes. Fluff wise, it depends on the story. I'm ready through the beast arises and space fleet battles are very important.

If you want to added space fleet battles into your 40k games, I'd suggest battle fleet gothic. GW made an old version of it years ago, but the rule set is pretty solid. We are hopping new rules come out for it after Blood bowl. My local group and I use Battle fleet gothic in campaigns as a starting point.

If you want to do space battles using the 40k ruleset, I think the closest you'll get is boarding actions using Zone Mortalis rules.

Personally, I absolutely love that idea

If you read the fluff, like the HH series, a LOT of battles take place in space and on battle ships, and they are probably some of the most intense battles to happen. Battle for the abyse is an entire book dedicated about killing one freaking ship.

Now i have heard rumors from my super secret squirrl friend, who knows a guy, who's brother's sister's wife's friend, works as a janitor at GW, and suposadly GW is looking to relaunch BFG in the not to distant future. But before that happens they want to set the warhammer 40k stage first.

Check out IA12. There is a cool, detailed description of a fleet battle between the Imperial navy and Necrons. Also features elites from The Minotaurs SM chapter assaulting a Necron command vessel.

I think the other problem is actually bringing fleets to combat, Space is a very big place and the imperium has more planets than ships, even in battlefleet gothic the fluff had lots of mentions of games of cat and mouse and point were you had a single light cruiser and a couple of escorts patrolling multiple sectors, so actually mustering a fleet in one place leaves a lot of other holes for the enemy to hit at

The game focuses on planetside engagements involving troops and armour, the fluff behind it focuses on that aspect because that's the scope of the game.

In the lore, massive fleet battles are happening, and the consequences of those determine whether the victors of the ground battle will be going home, or be blasted into dust from orbit.



And, for the record, the Battle Barge is not an actual barge... It's actually a very capable warship class.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Now i have heard rumors from my super secret squirrl friend, who knows a guy, who's brother's sister's wife's friend, works as a janitor at GW, and suposadly GW is looking to relaunch BFG in the not to distant future.

They announced as much when they created the specialist games division.

goundry wrote:
I think the other problem is actually bringing fleets to combat, Space is a very big place and the imperium has more planets than ships, even in battlefleet gothic the fluff had lots of mentions of games of cat and mouse and point were you had a single light cruiser and a couple of escorts patrolling multiple sectors, so actually mustering a fleet in one place leaves a lot of other holes for the enemy to hit at

Indeed, fleet combat was a rare thing, but they are some of the most decisive battles in the war.

And on a unrelated sorta related topic, 40k Epic and BFG were two games that carried over from one another REALLY well. Like you could do a massive galactic campaign, where you fought planet battles in epic games and space battles in BFG games, and loosing a ship in space meant to lost forces on the ground as well.

Forbidden Stars I think is a great game that highlights the importance of using a navy in support of ground forces.

 oldzoggy wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
Do you guys think they will bring back Battlefleet Gothic in time for the 13th crusade that will be happening (again) next year?

I don't expect them to be able produce bfg in such a way that can compete vs X-wing.
I played both and BfG game play is extremely clunky compared to X-wing and that even on top of inferior models and setting.

BFG vs. Star Wars Armada would be better comparison.

Aeronautica whatsit & Stormcloud Assault are more like the FFG X-Wing game.

It would be nice if they brought BFG back, I still have the original game. Games such as Armada, Halo Fleet Battle, Firestorm Armada and other games have proven there's a segment of the population that is willing to pay, if it's done properly.

I agree that fleet action is pretty important, but space is a big place and it's pretty easy to avoid an enemy fleet, especially if you're a long way away. Maybe not so in 40K (where Newtonian physics don't apply), but then again I wouldn't sweat about it.

I agree there is a market for space strategy table top games, but GW has to bring their A game to be anything other than a curiosity. I don't think the One trick pony navies from BFG of yesteryear will be able to compete with the nuanced and frankly slick balance schemes of BFGs competitors.