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Today Blood Bowl is officially able to be sold at LGS across the US. This game was killed ten years ago because of lackluster sales but they brought it back hoping somehow sales will be better this time around. They will be better and here's why: http://midwestwargaming.com/blood-bowl-no-brainer/

Maybe, maybe not. It's still a specialist game with a small rule set. The interest might be larger now since the interest in 40k is decreasing. I guess in a few years they will kill it again.

Yeah, but that article only polls people who've been playing the game before the new release. I know he states that the reason for the success is the 'huge' player base, and for a dead game it really is very impressive. But all those big tournaments he mentions is maybe just a few hundred people. You can't base a big new plastic release on that - it will need to attract new players in among a saturated skirmish-game market.

I attempted to pick up Blood Bowl again last year for a local championship. I hadn't played for ten yeas or so. By todays standards I found it a really clunky game, much more akin to playing something like chess than a 'real' miniatures game. There was very little flow and tactics beyond a few (constantly repeated) formations and a few (constantly repeated) ways to level up.

I'd like to see it do well, but I also think they should scrap the rules and start from scratch. Game design has moved on!

 ArbitorIan wrote:


I'd like to see it do well, but I also think they should scrap the rules and start from scratch. Game design has moved on!

Well in this case chess should be overhauled aswell.

If Blood bowl manages to rach the old player, I can see that they will make some good money on it.

dgwhite87 wrote:
This game was killed ten years ago because of lackluster sales but they brought it back hoping somehow sales will be better this time around.

As far as the first part of that statement, yes. As far as the second part, no - or, at least: not directly.

Specialist Games have never really been sales powerhouses - ex-head office staff have often confirmed that it's something of a zero-sum game, where when sales of SGs go up, core game sales go down by a similar amount. It's mostly the same customers with the same budgets, they're just buying a different box.
What they do provide though is a customer retention tool. When a customer gets bored of his Eldar army, and decides to play Blood Bowl instead, it means he's still playing a GW game. The fact he's sticking with GW means he's more likely to return to his Eldar army again in future, rather than binning it (or possibly worse, selling it on and robbing GW of sales).

In previous cases, it seems to be that SGs don't get a customer to spend money faster, but instead that they keep him spending money for longer. (And I wouldn't assume that's changed).

Just about everything that GW has been doing over the last year absolutely reeks of improving customer retention or even luring old customers back in, making for a much more long-term strategy than they've used in years; they've fired up a formidable social media presence, announced the return of Specialist Games (last November! - I can't recall the last time GW announced something that far in advance), relaunched several old favourite armies, started selling withdrawn models again (albeit on a limited basis), brought back long-ignored characters (multiple characters from the Inquisitor game have returned to the narrative) ...

... basically, lots of things that absolutely do not agree with GW's previous theory of an 18-month player turnover. They're pursuing such a massively different strategy now that I wouldn't assume that their reasons for bringing anything back are something so simple as just being the opposite of why they got rid of it.

I suspect that Blood Bowl will sell well (it's historically been one of the best selling SGs, so I can absolutely see why they started with it), but I don't think that's its real value.

I think another reason that Blood Bowl will likely be successful is that they did not Age of Simarify it, but stuck with the old Fantasy world setting. For people like me who don't like the AoS aesthetic, this will get me buying stuff outside 40K again and its a reason why I'm really excited by this release.

So I agree with the retention aspect and keeping hobby $ staying with GW versus going to another company.

I hope that it is really successful, not only so that they will release more teams, but also so that maybe -- just maybe -- they'll consider bringing back Mordheim or Necromunda.

I don't get it.

The old game was largely kept alive by some dedicated people writing on the LRB and commercially with the support of other minifacturers.

I sincerely hope that there will be new players as a result of GW half-assed rehash. But it is going to be tough, especially since Guildball, Dreadball and Elfball are all way superior games, in terms of gameplay.

It'll be a success because the community is still there. 900 players attended the Blood Bowl World Championship last year. Innovation doesn't always mean success (Both Beta-Max and Laser Disc were technically superior to VHS... we know who won that battle). Blood Bowl will survive because the community will keep it alive.

 treslibras wrote:
I sincerely hope that there will be new players as a result of GW half-assed rehash. But it is going to be tough, especially since Guildball, Dreadball and Elfball are all way superior games, in terms of gameplay.

While the game hasn't much changed, I'm not sure that's out of half-arsededness. Heavily reworking the game would have risked alienating the existing player base.

Personally, I think the veterans are a key-part of GW's target audience in this (like I said before, that I can't ignore the correlation in GW's new direction), but even if the veterans aren't the primary audience, GW can't ignore them.

If you ask me this whole reboot was riding on nostalgia, but the thing is only the existing playerbase is going to have any nostalgia for the game. Luckily the video games in particular are a good way of getting interest in it, or at least reaching an audience that might never stumble across the game otherwise.

Also, i'm not too keen of the placing of the BB product line on their official website. It is a bit obscure, under boxed games and buried way at the bottom left. Anyone new to the hobby who visits the site might not even stumble on that by accident. (its beneath the hobbit...).

 MarcoSkoll wrote:

dgwhite87 wrote:
This game was killed ten years ago because of lackluster sales but they brought it back hoping somehow sales will be better this time around.

As far as the first part of that statement, yes. As far as the second part, no - or, at least: not directly.

Specialist Games have never really been sales powerhouses - ex-head office staff have often confirmed that it's something of a zero-sum game, where when sales of SGs go up, core game sales go down by a similar amount. It's mostly the same customers with the same budgets, they're just buying a different box.
What they do provide though is a customer retention tool. When a customer gets bored of his Eldar army, and decides to play Blood Bowl instead, it means he's still playing a GW game. The fact he's sticking with GW means he's more likely to return to his Eldar army again in future, rather than binning it (or possibly worse, selling it on and robbing GW of sales).

In previous cases, it seems to be that SGs don't get a customer to spend money faster, but instead that they keep him spending money for longer. (And I wouldn't assume that's changed).

Just about everything that GW has been doing over the last year absolutely reeks of improving customer retention or even luring old customers back in, making for a much more long-term strategy than they've used in years; they've fired up a formidable social media presence, announced the return of Specialist Games (last November! - I can't recall the last time GW announced something that far in advance), relaunched several old favourite armies, started selling withdrawn models again (albeit on a limited basis), brought back long-ignored characters (multiple characters from the Inquisitor game have returned to the narrative) ...

... basically, lots of things that absolutely do not agree with GW's previous theory of an 18-month player turnover. They're pursuing such a massively different strategy now that I wouldn't assume that their reasons for bringing anything back are something so simple as just being the opposite of why they got rid of it.

I suspect that Blood Bowl will sell well (it's historically been one of the best selling SGs, so I can absolutely see why they started with it), but I don't think that's its real value.

Exalted.

This was GW's big mistake in axing the range in the first place. It allowed competition to grow in the niche markets GW vacated. If they had not let that happen, it is questionable if the Wargaming market would be as vibrant as it is now. Specialist Games should have never been looked at as a profit center, but as a strategic component of the business designed to retain buyers and block competitors. I mean, in the same time frame look how well competitors lasted when the Specialist Games were up and running? They didn't. Once Specialist games got axed, competitors started to make a dent in the market share.

Stupid move int he first place GW, but at least some one there finally figured it out. Shareholders should be happy, but I have a feeling it is too late for GW to go back now.

I think it has a lot going for it.

First, the rules (while largely unchanged) have really been re-organized well, IMHO. While it's clearly a sales idea to move some rules to a supplement, moving the league rules out of the basic game lets people who just want to play standalone games of Blood Bowl do that. The more complex and fiddly league rules move to something for those with more interest, and to a book for those people who aren't just buying it to play the box. The rules also seem to just generally be better composed. Even when I fully understood the rules with the old book, it seemed like the actual rules were spread over a wide area.

It was really nice to release (most? all?) of the old teams with the Teams of Legend pdf on the website too. Players with those teams now have 'official' rules right on the site, for no cost at all.

The new miniatures are less cartoonish (which could be good or bad depending on your preferences), but they definitely highlight improved production techniques since the old days. They look really good, and the coins/tokens for tracking are great (my only complaint is that the orc squig ball needs to be both the peg variant for the bases and the free-standing one).

The boxed sets for new teams, team dice, and variant pitches are a cool idea as well, and a way for the devoted fan to keep buying. Have your team painted up and ready to go? Maybe you want the new winter pitch and a second set of players to paint with snow bases?



I also think that the game (and all of their boxed games, for that matter) is a good way to keep fan money in the GW brand. I tend to be really obsessive about collecting, so I have (finally) forced myself to focus on one thing: Orks. However, there's no ork stuff to buy that I don't own. However, with Blood Bowl, I can buy a new boxed game, an expansion, maybe decks of special play cards, star players, referees, etc, in dribs and drabs, where I might not decide to start a new army (because that seems to be a LOT of purchases, all at once). If you are not buying anything for your primary army now, GW has other things you can buy from them that aren't simply a new army. Previously, if you didn't want to start a new force, once you had your army from GW, you were spending your hobby cash exclusively with other people. Now you can buy from GW even when you aren't building a force for AOS or 40K.

Plus, if you want to play the game, it's probably one of the least intimidating ways to start in the hobby. Assuming there are other players, you can grab skaven and start playing for $35. I'm hoping at some point they release orks and humans the same way, but even if they don't, dwarfs will be out there soon.

I'd be awfully suprised if they didn't eventually release humans and orks on their own as with the Skaven box.

 Easy E wrote:
Specialist Games should have never been looked at as a profit center, but as a strategic component of the business designed to retain buyers and block competitors.

As someone once put it, although I forget who, although the SGs did cannibalise core game sales, that's a lot better than letting someone else eat at them instead.

Stupid move in the first place GW, but at least some one there finally figured it out. Shareholders should be happy, but I have a feeling it is too late for GW to go back now.

Well, that remains to be seen. Although GW has squandered much of their previous advantage by taking so long over actually trying to counter their competition (as opposed to the Kirby-era approach of sticking their fingers in their ears, going "lalalalalala" and pretending the competition didn't exist), they're still a long way from helpless.
Even if they're no longer the only big dog in the market any more, they do still have some very strong IP (assuming, of course, they don't pull any more "Age of Sigmar" stunts - nuking thirty years of background in one go is a very short term marketing gimmick) and a lot of nostalgic old players out there who could potentially be lured back in.

As it is, they recently convinced me to buy from them again. I quit buying GW products back in 2012, mostly because of their toxic attitude to their customers - but they've dramatically improved on that front, and they've been putting some fiendishly tempting things up in their Made to Order schemes (and at surprisingly reasonable prices. The Kasrkin I bought last month were basically the same price as they were released at in 2003, after you take inflation into account).

That, I think, is why their current, nostalgic, direction might just work - old GW players are a massive market.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
It'll be a success because the community is still there. 900 players attended the Blood Bowl World Championship last year. Innovation doesn't always mean success (Both Beta-Max and Laser Disc were technically superior to VHS... we know who won that battle). Blood Bowl will survive because the community will keep it alive.

So...if the porn industry adopts Blood Bowl, it'll be a success?

Purely anecdotal, but I just ordered a BB box having actively avoided the game for 20 years because for the first time in 20 years the models don't suck. Even when I played GW games exclusively, even when I worked at an FLGS that had an active BB league, even though I was a GW fanboy with 14 40k armies, 2 fantasy armies and at least one faction for literally every other SG at the time except Inquisitor. I ALMOST got into the game in 2006ish when the Ogre team released (because the idea of ogres playing football is awesome), but an offhand remark by one of the players killed that little interest.

What's changed about this edition? What makes it suddenly appeal? Part of it is little things like watching die-hards stil playing it years after it went OOP. A large part was Fantasy Flight's BB:Team Manager being such an immensely good game. Grind, Dreadball, Guild Ball etc have all expanded the fantasy-race-sports games as well, and while I still can't give a rat's arse about the Cowboys or the Raiders or the Packers, at least there's elves and dwarves and orcs.

But mostly it's the models. The ogre BB models were the best ogres GW ever made and I kinda wish I'd just bought them back when they were $90, but beyond those the models were generally quite bad, they always looked like mid-90's goofball sculpts, not just cartoony but goofy. There's been a LOT of 3rd party teams released over the years, many of which look amazing, and finally the mainline figures look cool instead of goofy. The secondary components like the pitch and the cards and dice and books are also top-notch now, on par with most modern board games.

TL : DR - the game is gonna do well because everything about it screams quality, for a good price. GW finally sold me, a disinterested & disenfranchised former GW player a copy of the main game because it finally feels like a good value for excellent components with excellent figures.

 NWansbutter wrote:
I think another reason that Blood Bowl will likely be successful is that they did not Age of Simarify it, but stuck with the old Fantasy world setting. For people like me who don't like the AoS aesthetic, this will get me buying stuff outside 40K again and its a reason why I'm really excited by this release.

So I agree with the retention aspect and keeping hobby $ staying with GW versus going to another company.

I hope that it is really successful, not only so that they will release more teams, but also so that maybe -- just maybe -- they'll consider bringing back Mordheim or Necromunda.

I think most people prefer the simplistic rules of AOS... I think it would be even more successful if they stuck with that same pattern...

Here's the problem with Blood Bowl at the moment...

Where are the releases?

Why were the positionals for the first three teams not available on release?

Why is the fourth official team release delayed until January, instead of being released with all the other teams at the same time with the Season 1 book? And, by estimation, why will we need to wait to get the positionals for these teams some time after their release?

The way GW's releasing Blood Bowl right now has the potential to put a nasty stranglehold on interest in the game - not so much for old hands with older and 3rd party models who have their own leagues and tournaments, but definitely for new players who will be looking to buy and play GW exclusive.

If they really want Blood Bowl to be successful, they need to pull their thumbs out of their asses and get moving on the releases.

Success of the game will depend on the local community. It's bringing a lot of older players back and attracting new players. Unfortunately my experience with one of the older players has turned me off to the game and don't want to be part of the community they are pushing.

They insist that Illegal Procedure is a key part of the game must be used to maximum advantage. What killed it for me was then being told "This is a game about being an ***hole."

Debating just selling off the set and figs I just bought.

 silent25 wrote:
Success of the game will depend on the local community. It's bringing a lot of older players back and attracting new players. Unfortunately my experience with one of the older players has turned me off to the game and don't want to be part of the community they are pushing.

They insist that Illegal Procedure is a key part of the game must be used to maximum advantage. What killed it for me was then being told "This is a game about being an ***hole."

Debating just selling off the set and figs I just bought.

That is NOT what most players are like. I play blood bowl every single week and I wouldn't want to play with that guy either. I think you just ran into a bad egg there cause most players are super cool and friendly about it. No one in me league has EVER enforced illegal procedure rules like forgetting to move your turn marker or something inconsequential.

Seriously, BB players are usually the nicest guys. I'm sorry you ran into the rare jackass

 rayphoton wrote:

That is NOT what most players are like. I play blood bowl every single week and I wouldn't want to play with that guy either. I think you just ran into a bad egg there cause most players are super cool and friendly about it. No one in me league has EVER enforced illegal procedure rules like forgetting to move your turn marker or something inconsequential.

Seriously, BB players are usually the nicest guys. I'm sorry you ran into the rare jackass

That was my impression from the online communities and was looking forward to the game. This was a nasty shock. Unfortunately it appears to be what several members of the local community are pushing and all I see it doing is pushing away new players in my area.

 silent25 wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:

That is NOT what most players are like. I play blood bowl every single week and I wouldn't want to play with that guy either. I think you just ran into a bad egg there cause most players are super cool and friendly about it. No one in me league has EVER enforced illegal procedure rules like forgetting to move your turn marker or something inconsequential.

Seriously, BB players are usually the nicest guys. I'm sorry you ran into the rare jackass

That was my impression from the online communities and was looking forward to the game. This was a nasty shock. Unfortunately it appears to be what several members of the local community are pushing and all I see it doing is pushing away new players in my area.

ugh...never underestimate the power of people so entrenched in their game that they get freaked out when things change and become D-bags about it. Maybe you can connect with the other newer players and start your own league. I brought up your anecdote to my league last night and everyone agreed..that persons a A-hole. Has nothing to do with whatever game hes playing.

Hope you find a good group...it really can be alot of fun

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:

 NWansbutter wrote:
I think another reason that Blood Bowl will likely be successful is that they did not Age of Simarify it, but stuck with the old Fantasy world setting. For people like me who don't like the AoS aesthetic, this will get me buying stuff outside 40K again and its a reason why I'm really excited by this release.

So I agree with the retention aspect and keeping hobby $ staying with GW versus going to another company.

I hope that it is really successful, not only so that they will release more teams, but also so that maybe -- just maybe -- they'll consider bringing back Mordheim or Necromunda.

I think most people prefer the simplistic rules of AOS... I think it would be even more successful if they stuck with that same pattern...

I don't think Butter was talking about rule complexity, rather that it's set in the alternate Old World which still appeals to a lot of vets more than the Sigmary world.

BB is already pretty simple, the rulebook is written in a bit of a round-a-bout way which makes it feel more complicated than it is when you first start playing it, but at its core it's very simple. You could almost forego reading the rule book and just play off the reference sheet to start off with.

 silent25 wrote:
Success of the game will depend on the local community. It's bringing a lot of older players back and attracting new players. Unfortunately my experience with one of the older players has turned me off to the game and don't want to be part of the community they are pushing.

They insist that Illegal Procedure is a key part of the game must be used to maximum advantage. What killed it for me was then being told "This is a game about being an ***hole."

Debating just selling off the set and figs I just bought.

As a long-time BB coach I can assure you that is NOT what Blood Bowl is about. IP is part of the game (and definitely can be key if you lose your re-roll at a crucial time) but being a donkeycave is certainly not.

When teaching new coaches, I hammer home the "move your turn marker first" rule, just like I stress the "move the players that can't fail first", and "2+ will still fail one out of six tries".

Sounds like you ran into a real WAAC-hole. I urge you not to abandon the Brutiful Game because of one bad egg.

The issue with Bloodbowl was never the size of the player base, but the $ you could generate per customer. BB had a strong player base, but most players own a box set and a handful of teams, if they own that much. That's cheaper than any of the major GW releases.

I think a few really good points have been raised, especially about cGW realizing it might as well be themselves eating their own lunch with smaller games, and SG working as a means to retain existing customers as much as make money in its own right.

That said, I think another part of this is GW realising that some money is better than no money. Closing SG didn't push those players into the main game systems, it simply lost them as customers. GW now seem to be looking to a series of smaller scale projects for quick sale potential. In this sense, while GW will have a longer tail of expansion teams, I think this re-release of BB is more like the re-release of Space Hulk.

 feeder wrote:
As a long-time BB coach I can assure you that is NOT what Blood Bowl is about. IP is part of the game (and definitely can be key if you lose your re-roll at a crucial time) but being a donkeycave is certainly not.

As a 20 year BB vet who's played with I don't know many different groups, I can tell you Illegal Procedure is sometimes part of the game, depending on the group you play with. Generally speaking, most gamers find the rule pretty annoying, so maybe 80% of the groups I've played with have houseruled it out of the game. Even in the groups where it is still part of the game, most players will still give a warning or start the turn by reminding their opponent to move their turn counter, especially in the early stages of a tournament.