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With the incoming releases of The Wrath of Magnus and Traitor Legions codex supplements, Chaos Space Marine players, I think, have very good reasons to be excited about the proximate future state of the game. GW is actually addressing some core problems with the CSM rules, especially the Thousand Sons legion. One of my own recommendations, in the proposed rules forum, is that Rubricae should get heavy bolters as an upgrade option. That seems to be a common refrain: "Thousand Sons need upgrade options."

And lo and behold, Thousand Sons are getting upgrade options. This is a good thing. It is cause for excitement.

"CSM need chapter tactics." Again, a common refrain. And it looks like GW might actually be addressing it in the Traitor legions supplement.

So I want to start off by saying that this thread is not a blanket condemnation of GW and the incoming GW releases. There's a lot to be excited about.

However: for all of these things that they appear to be doing right, there is also one thing that concerns me, and it is something that only continues to exacerbate 40k's problem of scale creep, power creep, etc.

Magnus the Red:

7 wounds. FMC. 4+ armor. 4++ invuln that rerolls 1s. 15 psychic powers, one of which will be a D-shot. It's going to be able to shred Wraithknights like butter in close combat. And who bloody knows what special rules and shenanigans it's going to have?

Magnus the Red is going to be a model that's going to be practically impossible to kill, but at the same time is going to have a ridiculous capacity to kill other things.

This is one of those rare cases in which seeing a 4+ on an FMC actually is a bad thing, not a good thing. That 4+ armor save isn't there to make it easier to kill. That 4+ armor makes it more resilient to grav.

It's going to be a model that, so long as it stays in the air, should be able successfully to ignore most weapons that could be fired at it. Somebody please tell me of a TAC answer to a hard to hit model with anywhere from a 2-4++ rerollable and a 4+ armor save.

Anyone?

Even grav isn't going to work wonders against that thing.

And I repeat: it's going to be so broken and OP offensively that it's going to dominate both the CQC and psychic phases. GW openly boasts that it will be able to rip and tear through wraithknights.

That kind of a model is just one of a relatively short laundry list of models that do not belong in the game.

It might even be at the head of the list. It's likely going to be so broken that it will make Wraithknights and Imperial Knights appear balanced in comparison.

CSM players, I want you to consider for a moment how much you very likely hate riptides, hive tyrants, wraithknights, etc. Consider how much you've been watching 6-7th edition unfold and watching the scale and power level of the game go completely out of control.

Were you having fun then? I bet you weren't.

Send a clear message to GW with your wallets:

Enough is enough. Boycot Magnus the Red.

What if I like the model?

No thanks.

We don't know how broken Magnus is until we see his point cost. He could be 2000 points for all we know

 General Annoyance wrote:
What if I like the model?

GW doesn't care about why you buy the model. It only cares that you do.

At the end of the day, here's the question that you should be asking yourself:

Do you care about game balance? Do you dislike the fact that there's been so much power creep and scale creep since the start of 6th edition?

If the answer is "yes," then that should be a sufficiently good reason not to buy the model, even if you otherwise think it looks cool.

Buying the model just tells GW: "BREAK THE GAME MORE! I LIKE THESE OP GIANT ROBOTS AND MONSTERS!"

Or I buy the model because I like collecting. There's much more to the GW hobby than playing with the rules attached to the models.

It's been a while since we've had one of these.

 CrownAxe wrote:
We don't know how broken Magnus is until we see his point cost. He could be 2000 points for all we know

Let's assume for a moment that Magnus is prohibitively points expensive.

The fact remains that there's still the problem of scale creep. That kind of a model simply doesn't belong in a non-apocalypse game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Annoyance wrote:
Or I buy the model because I like collecting. There's much more to the GW hobby than playing with the rules attached to the models.

Again, you don't fill out a survey when you buy a model. There's no box that you can check off that says: "Make more models like this, but tone down the rules."

The only way to send that message is if the model sold really well, but nobody purchased the codex supplements, which just isn't going to happen.

You can have whatever motivations you want in buying the model, but the simple fact is that GW doesn't care. It only cares about whether or not people are buying the model.

It really is a binary thing:

Either you buy the model or not. If you buy the model, you encourage GW and contribute to power/scale creep.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
We don't know how broken Magnus is until we see his point cost. He could be 2000 points for all we know

Let's assume for a moment that Magnus is prohibitively points expensive.

The fact remains that there's still the problem of scale creep. That kind of a model simply doesn't belong in a non-apocalypse game.

"Scale creep" is an opinion. it's not actually bad for the game, it just makes the game different. It's not inherently bad.

I have no issues with big monsters in 40k, as long as they are balanced and brought in a friendly game. I'll bring a giant 1000 point flying bird when I start my daemons, but I'll also ask if you wanna fight it or not.

Frankly, we have no clue how insane he will be. A knight or WK is broken because they are underpriced, maybe big red will be perfectly priced, and a good counter to the garbage that is in the game, which is something chaos need, a heavy bolter on some rubric marines won't beat a wraithknight. That is not to say a heavy bolter wouldn't help rucricae, but it won't help in this specific situation, magnus might.

We don't know, but I imagine he will be toasted by his weight in Wraithknights. I don't think boycotting the CSM baddy (while NOT boycotting Eldar) is the solution.

He's a 650+ pts FMC with barely more wounds than a GUO.
He has a 4++, re-rolls 1
He knows all the Tzeentch and Change powers, plus one new power. He doesn't know any powers from any other Discplines.
He harnesses Warp Charges on a 2+ and doesn't suffer Perils ever. He is also ML5.
He has a cool melee weapon.

Depending on how the Tzeentch discipline changes, the only for for Magnus to get a 2++ re-rollable is through outside support from other Psykers.


He's powerful, but he is hardly boycott worthy. More than twice the price of a Knight (closest model survivability-wise), lacks any shooting outside of his Psychic Powers (which range from meh to short-ranged Str D) and if he is Flying he's wasting his combat stats and awesome Weapon.

Plus he isn't a GMC, so unless he has Eternal Warrior (no one with their hands on a review copy of the book has said either way afaik), he can be ID'd.


The updated Tzeentch Discipline will be the breaking point between powerful or absolutely broken. If it can buff his ++ save to a 2++ he is going to be nigh impossible to kill without D.
He'll probably be a Warp Charge void though, as most powers he'll want to cast will be WC2 or WC3. That's going to make it difficult for other TSons psykers to cast more than 1 power each per turn.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
We don't know how broken Magnus is until we see his point cost. He could be 2000 points for all we know

Let's assume for a moment that Magnus is prohibitively points expensive.

The fact remains that there's still the problem of scale creep. That kind of a model simply doesn't belong in a non-apocalypse game.

You can say that about a lot of what's in 40K these days though...

I buy into GW products because I love their model work; I no longer care enough about what GW does with the ruleset since I no longer play it outside of Kill Team.

Vote by paying for Codexes, if you think it will ultimately make a difference, but people like me are not to blame for the rules being terrible because we still buy GW models. Your boycott will have next to no effect on GW as long as people like me buy models because we enjoy them. Good luck convincing collectors to boycott this.

G.A

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
He's a 650+ pts FMC with barely more wounds than a GUO.

I'm unaware of them releasing a points cost. Do you have a source for this?

He has a 4++, re-rolls 1

Cursed earth gives him a 3++ rerollable. I'm sure that somebody will be able to figure out a way to make that a 2++ rerollable.

He harnesses Warp Charges on a 2+ and doesn't suffer Perils ever. He is also ML5.

Do you have any sources for this?

If this is true, that only argues the point for me: this is patently OP.

It's going to make wraithknights and hive tyrants look underpowered in comparison.

Depending on how the Tzeentch discipline changes, the only for for Magnus to get a 2++ re-rollable is through outside support from other Psykers.

Which he'll have. That's not even a question.

Ho boy, another one of these threads. It seems very premature to assume Magnus is OP without even playing against it. Now if he were a GMC, then I could see why you could jump to conclusions to him being OP. Staying as a MC though means he's very, very vulnerable to being knocked out of the sky and mass-fired upon. Poison weapons in particular are a big weakness and S6-7 spam is so plentiful nowadays that you'll almost certainly need someone like fateweaver around to ensure he can re-roll grounding checks. He's not much tougher than a C'tan with more wounds.

 Traditio wrote:
Do you have any sources for this?

Here, from the rumour thread. Information from one of the people who got a review copy.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I have no issues with big monsters in 40k, as long as they are balanced and brought in a friendly game. I'll bring a giant 1000 point flying bird when I start my daemons, but I'll also ask if you wanna fight it or not.

Frankly, we have no clue how insane he will be. A knight or WK is broken because they are underpriced, maybe big red will be perfectly priced, and a good counter to the garbage that is in the game, which is something chaos need, a heavy bolter on some rubric marines won't beat a wraithknight. That is not to say a heavy bolter wouldn't help rucricae, but it won't help in this specific situation, magnus might.

If you legitimately think that there is too much garbage in the game, then buying MORE garbage and encouraging GW to produce MORE garbage is literally the opposite of what you should be doing.

I agree with you. Magnus is precisely the sort of thing that CSM would need to deal with something like wraithknight, a hive tyrant, a riptide, a storm surge, etc.

But do you really want a game where that's even a consideration? Where you even have to ask yourself: "How do I counter a <300 point fething wraithknight?"

If you buy Magnus, you are just encouraging GW to move the game more in that direction.

Oh good, another "if you enjoy something I don't like you're a bad person" thread from the OP. Here's an alternative point of view: buy a dozen copies of this model, because Apocalypse-scale stuff is awesome and GW should make more of it.

 Traditio wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I have no issues with big monsters in 40k, as long as they are balanced and brought in a friendly game. I'll bring a giant 1000 point flying bird when I start my daemons, but I'll also ask if you wanna fight it or not.

Frankly, we have no clue how insane he will be. A knight or WK is broken because they are underpriced, maybe big red will be perfectly priced, and a good counter to the garbage that is in the game, which is something chaos need, a heavy bolter on some rubric marines won't beat a wraithknight. That is not to say a heavy bolter wouldn't help rucricae, but it won't help in this specific situation, magnus might.

If you legitimately think that there is too much garbage in the game, then buying MORE garbage and encouraging GW to produce MORE garbage is literally the opposite of what you should be doing.

I agree with you. Magnus is precisely the sort of thing that CSM would need to deal with something like wraithknight, a hive tyrant, a riptide, a storm surge, etc.

But do you really want a game where that's even a consideration? Where you even have to ask yourself: "How do I counter a <300 point fething wraithknight?"

If you buy Magnus, you are just encouraging GW to move the game more in that direction.

That ship has sailed. Why are you only now noticing this?

Leaving CSM without their heavy, while giving it to everyone else (except Orks of course) is just bizarre. It's easy for us to have a "No LOW night" and call it done.

 Peregrine wrote:
Oh good, another "if you enjoy something I don't like you're a bad person" thread from the OP. Here's an alternative point of view: buy a dozen copies of this model, because Apocalypse-scale stuff is awesome and GW should make more of it.

I have previously seen you complain about wraithknights and riptides and how game-breakingly OP they are.

Do you really expect me to believe that you are excited about a model that will be able to blow up your leeman russes and valkeries with pretty much no possibility of you doing much of anything about it?

Quoting from the other thread:

"-Magnus is a beast at 650 points but he has some crazy powers. psyk 5, draws line of sight to any model on the battlefield, harnesses charges on 2+, never perils, 4+ invuln, and besides knowing all Tzeentch & Change spells he has that Gaze you heard about, charge 5 (but remember all bonuses TS get!) 18’ D, Ap 1, assault 1, soulblaze! His staff is S user, AP2, force, soul blaze and transmogrify. Hot."

So even if you hide your leeman russes, it doesn't matter. LOS isn't a thing.

If you run all the Leeman Russes, you can look forward to Magnus single handedly tabling you, points for point.

You're excited about this, Peregrine?

Yes he can draw los to everything, however you have to look at this in context.

His longest range shooting attacks are 24". One is Str 5 and the other is a Str D6+1 blast.

Most of his other psychic shooting attacks have a 9" or 18" range, and are WC2 or WC3. He is not a long range shooter.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yes he can draw los to everything, however you have to look at this in context.

His longest range shooting attacks are 24". One is Str 5 and the other is a Str D6+1 blast.

Most of his other psychic shooting attacks have a 9" or 18" range, and are WC2 or WC3. He is not a long range shooter.

1. He harnesses on a 2+, is ML5, is part of an army of ALL the psykers and can't suffer perils. So fething what if he requires 2 or 3 warp charges?

2. He's an FMC with a badass melee weapon. LOS doesn't just matter in the psychic and shooting phases.

3. LOS only matters over long ranges? Again, he's an FMC. Short ranges don't matter when he can be pretty much anywhere on the table that he wants to be.

There is no other conclusion that you can draw:

This is more game breakingly OP than a wraithknight. That quite possibly might be the most OP model released to date, with the possible exception of the storm surge.

Still doesn't seem great for almost 700 points.

So how is everyone? I hope you're all doing well. I'm a bit under the weather, but you know, it's cold out, it happens. Seeing the doctor tomorrow, so hopefully that'll get sorted out.

As for this? I don't think it's really worthy of a response. I, for one, am not going to buy Magnus-not because I think he's broken (he might be-but at 650 points, probably not) but because I'm a Nurgle man myself.

Now, let's see. At 650 points, he's got 7 wounds with a 4++. He's almost certainly going to have EW, since he's a flipping Primarch, but let's see how many sniper shots it takes to kill him.

7 wounds. A 4++ makes that 14, rerolling ones makes that 16.8. Wounding on 4s makes that 33.6. Hitting on 3s makes that 50.4. So that's 51 Space Marines Scouts with Sniper Rifles to kill Magnus in one turn. That's only 612 points.

Traditio, did you bother to do the math? Because I just did. Point for point, Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles kill this guy. In one turn.

Edit: Of course, he can fly to multiply the number of shots needed by 4. In which case, point for point, Space Marines Scouts with Sniper Rifles can STILL kill him, since he won't be able to wipe enough of them out before they shoot him out of the sky. It just won't happen in one turn, instead taking several.

 Traditio wrote:
It might even be at the head of the list. It's likely going to be so broken that it will make Wraithknights and Imperial Knights appear balanced in comparison.

... Imperial Knights are OP now?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Still doesn't seem great for almost 700 points.

1. Dominates the psychic phase.
2. Dominates the assault phase and can tear wraithknights to shreds
3. Practically impossible to kill.

What else do you want for 650 points?

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Still doesn't seem great for almost 700 points.

1. Dominates the psychic phase.
2. Dominates the assault phase and can tear wraithknights to shreds
3. Practically impossible to kill.

What else do you want for 650 points?

Did you miss my post? 612 points of Sniper Scouts kill him just fine.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Still doesn't seem great for almost 700 points.

1. Dominates the psychic phase.
2. Dominates the assault phase and can tear wraithknights to shreds
3. Practically impossible to kill.

What else do you want for 650 points?

1) Many armies that dominate the psychic phase do so for 600-700 points so thats appropriate
2) I would hope so he costs twice as much as a wraithknight
3) Actually he isn't. T7 with 4+/4++ rerolling 1s is pretty tame. Its the additional psykers casting buffs on him that make him broken in which case it isn't him that's broken but the additional psykers doing it

Yeah, point for point, 6 squads of 11 Pink Horrors (594 points) gives you 12 Warp Charges to Magnus's 5.