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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







This is a simple one.

For the Masters of Arcane Knowledge, modify the ability for all Psykers to manifest an additional power beyond their Mastery Level, to allow them to use that additional roll to optionally manifest a previously-manifested power.

Thus a Scarab Occult Terminator Sorcerer could cast Psychic Shriek twice, or Ahriman could cast it four times (3 with the Black Staff, plus one additional time. The 5th Manifestation would need to be another power).

This would help turn the Grand Coven go from "yeah, sure I guess rerolling Perils is helpful" to legitimately scary. The most immediate thing people would jump on would be Magnus using Boon of Flame to double-summon Burning Chariots, or double-casting Gaze Of Magnus, but it also would combo for being able to buff/debuff more units, or to throw out when more Scrapcode Curses against a Scars Gladius, and give them more psychic flexibility. Double-Summoning could also be useful too, especially combined with the ability to reroll Perils.

Your thoughts as to how this would affect the Grand Coven as a competitive army?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/02 15:57:19


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Probably not needed. It's already a pretty damn potent formation.

That being said, why don't we see how the formation plays when it comes out, then talk about buffing/nerfing it?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







What's your reasoning for it being potent, especially for the cost?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







The more I think about it, the more I feel that the best option for Masters of Arcane Knowledge would just be to grant every Character in the detachment +1 Mastery Level. Getting a ML 2 sorcerer out of Rubric Marines would...actually make them worth taking, even in their War Cabal.

Restructuring the Grand Cabal so it isn't 3-something formations of "Spam More Sorcerers" would be preferable, but the extra dice and chances of getting relevant powers are a good band-aid.
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 MagicJuggler wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I feel that the best option for Masters of Arcane Knowledge would just be to grant every Character in the detachment +1 Mastery Level. Getting a ML 2 sorcerer out of Rubric Marines would...actually make them worth taking, even in their War Cabal.

Restructuring the Grand Cabal so it isn't 3-something formations of "Spam More Sorcerers" would be preferable, but the extra dice and chances of getting relevant powers are a good band-aid.

You think they need MORE warp charges? Tsons are already the hands-down absolute kings of Psychics. They don't need generic sorcerers at ML4.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Waaaghpower wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I feel that the best option for Masters of Arcane Knowledge would just be to grant every Character in the detachment +1 Mastery Level. Getting a ML 2 sorcerer out of Rubric Marines would...actually make them worth taking, even in their War Cabal.

Restructuring the Grand Cabal so it isn't 3-something formations of "Spam More Sorcerers" would be preferable, but the extra dice and chances of getting relevant powers are a good band-aid.

You think they need MORE warp charges? Tsons are already the hands-down absolute kings of Psychics. They don't need generic sorcerers at ML4.


More Warp Charges, and insurance against Rubric Sorcerers rolling a naff power. The issue with Psykers in 40k is that you roughly need 2.5 WC for each WC you want to manifest reliably. Compared to just shooting your foe, let's be honest. It's one reason you see stuff like the Culexus/Scatpack/Riptide Wing armies nowadays.

Another thing to consider is the math of points per Warp Charge. Daemons originally could get something like one Warp Charge per 40 points by merit of ML 3 Disc Heralds, and 45 points per WC through Pink Horrors. And this is before Wrath of Magnus updated their Daemons.

By contrast, 1k Sons are usually no better than regular Chaos Marines when it comes to generating powers (and in fact may be worse, due to higher base unit taxes). A Rubric Marine unit is 150 pts base for 1 Warp Charge, the Scarab Terminators are 250 for 2, Magnus is 650 for 5...so 150, 125, or 150 points per Warp Charge. There's a reason most of the theoryhammer for running 1k sons tends to devolve into "Daemon Allies first". (Heralds Anarchic gives you 2 WC per 45 points, Blue Horrors give you 2 per 55 WC, so a unit of 11 Blue Horrors and 1 Anarchic Herald is 100 points for 4 Warp Charge, and the ability to split into Brimstones on top of that!). And to make it worse, they're usually about as tough as the 1k Sons if not tougher for the point cost. Innate reroll 1s go a long way after all, as does having only an Invulnerable save so they're not extra-vulnerable to Grav...

The extra ML makes a 1k sons unit 75 points per Warp Charge, and a Scarab Terminator unit 83 points per Warp Charge. In a pinch, you could add a Champ to each Tzaangor unit to make it 80 points per Warp Charge, and 37 base for regular Sorcerers (since they have to take the Mark). An extra 9 WC by itself don't break the army but give them a lot more breathing room, but more importantly it allows them more reliability in not generating the wrong powers!

PS: Black Legion already get a generic ML 4 Sorcerer, via Last Memory. Technically you could also run a CAD and get a ML 4 Exalted Sorcerer with them too if you so desired.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/09 12:38:42


 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




You're missing something huge, though: There's more to psychic OP-ness than number of Warp Charges. For each individual psyker, increasing the number of Mastery Levels does more than get you extra charges - You also get another power, and you become harder to Deny/better at Denying powers yourself.
Lets say you want to roll on Biomancy with a psyker in order to run a Melee build. You want Warp Speed or Iron Arm, and both would be ideal. (This is a general example, but the principles apply to other things.)
If you're a Mastery Level 1 Psyker, you have a 1/3rd chance of getting one of the powers.
If you're Ml2, you have a 2/3rds chane of getting one power, but only a 1/25ths chance (or so) of getting both.
At Ml3, you'll get one of the powers about 80% of the time, and you have (I can't do the exact math, but something like) 20-30% odds of getting both powers.
At Ml4, the odds of getting one power is nearly 100%. The odds of getting both is above 50%.

Being able to reliably get the powers you want is worth a huge premium. If you take four units of ML1 psykers, you could roll a bunch of doubles and get copies of useless powers - That never happens with good Psykers.
Also, Sorcerers get Spell Familiars, meaning that their Warp Charges go a lot further than anyone else's. With re-rolls, you're getting 1.5x utility versus everyone else.

EDIT: And since you brought it up: The Last Memory does make someone ML4, but they don't get to choose their power, and it denies you Psychic Focus unless you roll on Pyromancy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/10 07:52:51


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







It's the ML 1 thing in particular that is important, especially since Marked models *have* to roll at least one power on their God's table, so they can't even take a normal Psychic Focus anyway. The Tzeentch Primaris is still an awful power that almost never gets cast, Boon of Mutation is another power...that almost never gets cast, and while Siphon Magic is nice on a ML 2 or 3 caster, it's useless on an ML 1 caster unless you bend the RAW to "store dice" across phases (like in YMDC). So, a basic Tzeentch Sorcerer already has a 33% of being little more than a glorified Force Weapon caddy/WC battery.

Whereas that Heralds Anarchic example I gave? They can roll a power on Malefic, get Summoning by Psychic Focus, and get Flickerfire from Chaos Psychic Focus. Many of the other good psychics both combine cost-efficiency with lacking deadweight behind them.
   
 
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