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Say deep striking needs a target - something to lock on to. So, deep striking into an unoccupied space on the battle table, without something to lock onto can cause a scatter as normal. But, having a target to lock onto will allow a unit to arrive without scatter like we have now with homers and the like. Say that target could be anything - a simple Las gun, a refractor field, some kind of relic - anything really that can be picked up from orbit. Now, fluff wise, something like an axe or a choppa wouldn't work as a target but let's say game play wise they would. This could allow deep striking units to deep strike right into CC.

But why propose this? And would it be broken? Currently, if a unit deeps trikes all it has is some shooting to do and then it sits there, or runs then sits there. Which is fine if your shooting is good. But some units can deep strike then can't really shoot very effectively. It makes assault units that can deep strike pretty worthless.

But if you could deep strike right into combat it would be completely different. However, I would temper the obviously overpowered nature of this rule by saying that if you could do this, you always struck blows in close combat last, even after initiative 1. Or, you only had 1 attack per model or possibly both.

This is an idea to help out armies or units that currently have the ability to deep strike or are good at assault but don't really benefit much from either. For units that are exceptional in cc, the reduction in attacks or nerf to initiative is designed to stop the obvious advantage of deleting a unit they deep strike into combat with. What do you think?

Would there by any other modifiers like furious charge, rage, etc that would apply, or would it be a hard "if you deepstrike into combat, you strike at Int 0 and with 1 attack"?

I would think something more akin to "declare during deployment that x unit is using 'Assault Stike' rule, and when they deep strike, they make charge 1+d6" but at Initiative 0/last"

That way they don't auto destroy certain armies. It still gives them more power, but not not as automatic as your first iteration.

I play tau, so i would be one of the most impacted, so it is coming from a selfish perspective. But if you deepstrike into combat, i don't get an overwatch, no interceptor, and even with just 1 attack, i am still going to lose wildly, with no counterplay besides more points/units, which means you have more points/units endlessly.

It also leaves the deepstrike mishaps in play, which you may hate, but is a rule currently.

I would say no other special rules apply. it's just a flat out 1 attack at lower than 1 initiative. Even if the deep striking unit managed to wipe the unit they assaulted they'd still be sat there next turn and against something like tau they'd be in range of everything so would most likely get wiped themselves next turn.

It's just a kernel of an idea at the moment because right now, deep striking assault units and some deep striking ranged units are pretty worthless at the moment

Rather than doing this, I think it would be easier to recost assault units and shooting units. If assault is going to suck, the units should be cheap.

I think this would be a pretty good way for assault units that deep strike to make an impact without being overly broken. If they're good at assault they will win overall bit it gives an opportunity to tie up units such as wraithknights and such

You wouldn't need to "tie up" the WK if it cost an appropriate amount of points.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
Say deep striking needs a target - something to lock on to. So, deep striking into an unoccupied space on the battle table, without something to lock onto can cause a scatter as normal. But, having a target to lock onto will allow a unit to arrive without scatter like we have now with homers and the like. Say that target could be anything - a simple Las gun, a refractor field, some kind of relic - anything really that can be picked up from orbit. Now, fluff wise, something like an axe or a choppa wouldn't work as a target but let's say game play wise they would. This could allow deep striking units to deep strike right into CC.

But why propose this? And would it be broken? Currently, if a unit deeps trikes all it has is some shooting to do and then it sits there, or runs then sits there. Which is fine if your shooting is good. But some units can deep strike then can't really shoot very effectively. It makes assault units that can deep strike pretty worthless.

But if you could deep strike right into combat it would be completely different. However, I would temper the obviously overpowered nature of this rule by saying that if you could do this, you always struck blows in close combat last, even after initiative 1. Or, you only had 1 attack per model or possibly both.

This is an idea to help out armies or units that currently have the ability to deep strike or are good at assault but don't really benefit much from either. For units that are exceptional in cc, the reduction in attacks or nerf to initiative is designed to stop the obvious advantage of deleting a unit they deep strike into combat with. What do you think?

Not every Deep Strike happens from orbit, though. Trygons and Mawlocks arrive from below the ground, and Land Speeders are known to drop down from high altitude. Assault Marines and Crisis Suits are noted as being dropped by air transports and as any parachuter can tell you, hitting a huge X can be a problem, so a single model or their gun is less likely to be hit directly.

Still in some of those cases, it may be warranted to have a Charging effect. Off hand, why not make it so that it is just a Hammer of Wrath and deny any Blows from Weapons or Attack stat on both sides and just leave it at that? You get the impact of them dropping on the bodies/teleporting fields removing bodies/rising from the ground at that point, but also take in to account the recovery time of the "Chargers" and the "Chargees".

This could also replace this case of a Mishap.

Well, fluff wise things like trygons and mawlocks are even easier to justify for this, fluff wise. It would still work for them. As for things like assault marines and crisis suits, again, you could make it fluffy. Not sure crisis suits would would immediately have a need to deep strike into cc though! From a rules perspective and, I suppose a tactical one, they may want to.

Would a landspeeder want to? I'm not up on their rules.

As for your ideas about using hammer of wrath, I can see the merit in that and it makes sense. My original thoughts were to disallow mechanics that would guarantee the deep striking unit an instagib.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel: I think some units are going to be a given for a while yet. Maybe not but probably so. I often think that so many threads on Dakka concentrate on nerfing units without thinking about the overall mechanics of the game - still, I agree that the wraithknight isn't a good fit in terms of points costings but I was just using it as an example and I don't want to derail the thread into which units need to be nerfed.

Well as in your original suggestion, CSH, Hammer of Wrath does not allow any Special Rules' effects, which is what made me think of it. And in most Deep Strike cases, base Str will not instagib anything, just MCs and maybe Vehicles.

And non-Combat Vehicles (which are all but Walkers and Chariots) would have to be addressed since only a few can Tank Shock/Ram.

Maybe keeping it as an alternate form of Deep Strike Charge as pumaman suggested would avoid Mishap and non-Tank/Walker/Chariot issues.

The idea works thematically for most jump units because most of them aren't in orbit, just higher up than most units can effectively target, hidden, and/or in a flying transport. I like the idea of choosing whether or not to have melee/mishap toggleable, as shooty DS units like swooping hawks would rather go back into reserves than enter melee combat with a serious disadvantage. As for the melee disadvantage, I think it should be something like -2 init and -1 WS.

Ah, I wasn't proposing that deep strike should always be into close combat - just that it should be possible. Deep striking into an empty space would also be possible.

I had originally thought that no special rules should apply but, reading Charistoph's post, I felt that hammer of wrath wouldn't be too much of a boost for even decent cc units that chose to DS straight into cc.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Would there by any other modifiers like furious charge, rage, etc that would apply, or would it be a hard "if you deepstrike into combat, you strike at Int 0 and with 1 attack"?

I would think something more akin to "declare during deployment that x unit is using 'Assault Stike' rule, and when they deep strike, they make charge 1+d6" but at Initiative 0/last"

That way they don't auto destroy certain armies. It still gives them more power, but not not as automatic as your first iteration.

I play tau, so i would be one of the most impacted, so it is coming from a selfish perspective. But if you deepstrike into combat, i don't get an overwatch, no interceptor, and even with just 1 attack, i am still going to lose wildly, with no counterplay besides more points/units, which means you have more points/units endlessly.

It also leaves the deepstrike mishaps in play, which you may hate, but is a rule currently.

As a fellow Tau player, I'm probably also a bit biased, but I'd much prefer this implementation.

Allowing all units that Deep Strike to completely bypass all ways to mitigate it (intervening units, Interceptor, Overwatch) would be overpowered.

As an addition to your suggestion, there should be something in the "Assault Strike" method that would keep each and every Deep Strike unit from invoking it - something like "If deploying through the Assault Strike method, models cannot make any shooting attacks on the turn they arrive" or at least force Snap Shots.

At the very least, Deepstriking directly onto another target (barring special rules like the Mawloc) should invoke Dangerous Terrain tests - if Deep Striking into a crater or ruins is dangerous, Deep Striking into a bunch of bodies (who are probably shooting at you as descend upon them) has to be at least as dangerous.

I'd be opposed to this. It doesn't make much sense from a fluff perspective, and is liable to be horridly OP from a gameplay perspective.

And I say this as someone with Daemons, Grey Knights, and Deathwing Knights.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
But if you could deep strike right into combat it would be completely different. However, I would temper the obviously overpowered nature of this rule by saying that if you could do this, you always struck blows in close combat last, even after initiative 1. Or, you only had 1 attack per model or possibly both.

The problem with this is that the units/armies that auto-lose to assaulting from deep strike still get slaughtered in combat even if you're hitting at less than 100% effectiveness. In fact, it's probably a good thing to only have one attack per model because it minimizes the chances that you wipe out the unit on your first round of combat and leave your expensive melee threat exposed during your opponent's next shooting phase. The ideal situation is that you drop in with mass deep striking assault threats, lock their whole army in combat, and win combat at the end of their turn so you can charge directly into the next target. So at most your "nerf" is negligible in effect, and it often acts as a buff instead of a nerf.

If you want to make assaulting out of deep strike fair you need to make it dangerous. 1D6" charge distance, full-BS overwatch, and automatically failing any sweeping advance attempts seems pretty reasonable. Attempting to deep strike and charge should be an act of desperation with a very high chance of failing and costing you the game. Otherwise you just spam mass deep striking assault units and auto-win against certain armies.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
But if you could deep strike right into combat it would be completely different. However, I would temper the obviously overpowered nature of this rule by saying that if you could do this, you always struck blows in close combat last, even after initiative 1. Or, you only had 1 attack per model or possibly both.

The problem with this is that the units/armies that auto-lose to assaulting from deep strike still get slaughtered in combat even if you're hitting at less than 100% effectiveness. In fact, it's probably a good thing to only have one attack per model because it minimizes the chances that you wipe out the unit on your first round of combat and leave your expensive melee threat exposed during your opponent's next shooting phase. The ideal situation is that you drop in with mass deep striking assault threats, lock their whole army in combat, and win combat at the end of their turn so you can charge directly into the next target. So at most your "nerf" is negligible in effect, and it often acts as a buff instead of a nerf.

If you want to make assaulting out of deep strike fair you need to make it dangerous. 1D6" charge distance, full-BS overwatch, and automatically failing any sweeping advance attempts seems pretty reasonable. Attempting to deep strike and charge should be an act of desperation with a very high chance of failing and costing you the game. Otherwise you just spam mass deep striking assault units and auto-win against certain armies.

I can agree with the point, but I think limiting the initial Charge to just a HoW would work for most units this involves. HoW does not use AP, relies on the base Str, and is limited to one single Attack.

However, you do bring up those three armies which would benefit the most: Grey Knights (Terminators with Force Weapons), Daemons (largely Assault army, everyone can Deep Strike), and Deathwing (Terminators with more Terminators). If it was limited to just a HoW, this wouldn't be an "this turn you die", unless you are dealing with a very weak/limited/unlucky army on the table. Where it does get dangerous is the following turns as they turn their Assault effectiveness on and go to town with anyone being able to counter.

Reviewing it from that perspective, it would be useful as a very specific USR which one would theoretically "pay points" to have.

I do agree that not having it be a way to avoid Mishap and Overwatch would be too powerful, however, I do not think that it should have full-BS Overwatch as they have already had a chance to be shot as much as if the unit had not Deep Struck. Limiting the Charge Range to D6" should be sufficient as it is easily puts a unit in to Scatter Mishap range.

Hi people. I've just recently posted rules with the intention to facilitate assaults from deep strike, and improve overwatch. it's titled Deep Assault and Dedicated Overwatch Fan Rules. make sure you read right to the bottom thogh as there are corrections after Unusual Suspect's coments. Help would be greatly apreciated.

Everyone here seem to have some realy good ideas and a desire to create a working for assaults from deepstrike.

or better yet can I copy the content of my thread and paiste it here.

Rather than everyone going over to my thread then coming back to post coments we could have everything here.

I think that would be better.

Yes, having it be just hammer of wrath on the turn they arrive is a great idea - bur maybe even say it's HOW at init 1? This isn't designed to be super powerful - just to make deep strike worthwhile for units that aren't shooty.

I'm not sure why there are comments about over watch and charge distances though - this is about deep striking directly into assault.

Andros - I'll read your thread now.

Since starting CSM and looking at Warp Talons, I've wondered why a rule for assaulting using deep strike wasn't a thing for them. I mean, Lore-wise, these guys literally claw through the Immaterium to burst out of a warp opening above their prey to slaughter it. These guys seem like a prime example of a unit that would do this as they are completely reliant on assault. Having to wait a turn after coming in just doesn't fit with the fluff. The raptor talon formation mitigates this by allowing them to charge the turn they arrive, albeit as a disorganised charge, but I can fully get behind that rule as they aren't exactly all going to strike at once, it'll be a short, sustained arrival as they claw through at different points.

Hmmm, how about any unit can Deep Strike into assault (during the Assault Phase, choose which after you roll for reserves), but only get a single HoW attack. Overwatch is allowed.

However, you only make combat if your scatter roll means you are still in base contact with a member of the unit. If you scatter outside of base-to-base contact, you're left stranded in the open at the mercy of shooting in the next turn.

Would certainly make it risky. Especially if you state that all units assaulting through Deep Strike must suffer unmodified scatter (no reduced scatter distance from Webway Portals and the like).

If it's still too powerful that way, specify an extra D6 scatter. Make it really risky. Would need playtesting though.

Peregrine is right, a huge penalty on the first round would most of the time be a big buff for the assaulting units, as it will probably result in a round of combat with very few casualties on both sides.

I think the main problem is that a shooty unit, when it gets locked in combat, becomes completely useless. It can't shoot at anything anymore, and will probably die very quickly without doing anything in return to the assaulting unit. So being able to lock a unit in combat, no matter where it is on the board (so basically ignoring everything about movement and placement), is insanely overpowered against shooty armies.

Maybe you could provide options for the defender: when the assaulting unit DS into combat, they get HoW (at initiative 10) and nothing else. Then the defending unit has a choice: either swing back normally, and be locked in combat, or retreat 3" and fire snap shots when doing so. This simulate the fact that they saw the guys falling from the sky, moved back in panic and fired a few bad shots, but at the same time got hit a few times.

But personally I prefer the standard default of not assaulting from reserves, period. Melee units that are bad can be buffed in other ways.

Defenders from Deep Strike Assault get to Flickerjump basically?

I wouldn't be opposed to this if units had some option to disengage from close combat. "Reducing" the initial attack to HoW does little for those units who know their going to get mauled once a real round of melee combat is going to occur, especially one they can't escape from.

I don't see why the unit they are engaging upon deep striking couldn't fire over watch shots. I was a paratrooper in the army, and just from jumping, and being on the ground while other paratroopers land, you would still have enough time to bring your weapon up and fire shots off. If it was just limited to hammer of wrath attacks, and the unit got to fire it's overwatch... I wouldn't be too opposed to it as long as the units that can do it (and not every deep striking unit should be able to, it would have to be a pretty elite unit) are priced accordingly.

 Stormonu wrote:
I wouldn't be opposed to this if units had some option to disengage from close combat. "Reducing" the initial attack to HoW does little for those units who know their going to get mauled once a real round of melee combat is going to occur, especially one they can't escape from.

Yeah, this is something that is on the same level as models firing at a target appropriate to their weapon rather than just what everyone else is shooting at. There is no realistic reason for it, and some units have specific rules which allow them to bypass these rules anyway.

If Hit & Run became like Fleet, where its "old' version became a standard rule, and the new Hit & Run a bonus to that rule, I feel it would be a good thing for the game.

I play with charges possible after any non-standard deployment on succesfull LD test. But I play rather balanced armies, so there is no problem with autowins. But the easiest solution to the "crazy deep strike assault vs shooty armies" is simply reverting to 2nd ed rules of shooting INTO assaults. Now games including such assaults would be extremly fast paced, rarely going beyond turn two or three... Maximum 50% reserves should probably be reinstated, but I don't really see a reason to overcomplicate the subject with a stack of special case rules and resolution methods...