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Say you deepstrike a unit of pink horrors, you mishap and roll a result of 1. What happens? Is the unit destroyed without splitting or do you split from where the initial model was placed/scattered to?

You get nothing. There was never a model in play to deploy near.

At which point in the deep striking rules does it say that the models are considered in play?

"Place the first model and roll for Scatter". Soooo, yeah ... there is totally a model in play in order to determine if a Mishap happens in the first place, otherwise how do we know a Mishap occured?

If you scatter and Mishap, then roll a 1 on the Mishap table, you consider the Pinks destroyed and "before removing the last model" (which was also the first model you placed) you can then measure 6" of that model to place the Blue horrors.

It's a pretty sneaky way to use Summoning to make 10 Pinks turn into 20 Blues and thus get more WC, but you are not likely to get all 20 since if you were close enough to something that caused the Mishap, then you probably cannot fit all 20 Blues. Accoridng to the FAQ, all Blues must be within 6" and excess models that cannot fit are destroyed as do NOT create Brimstones.

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I think this would be one of those instances where common sense should override RAW. Galef is right about how the rule reads, but it doesn't feel like how it should be played. I would say that the intent would be that no Blue Horrors would be placed after a DS mishap.

I view the first model placed as a marker of base size, not as a deployed unit (I mean, it then scatters, and can end up destroyed, back in reserves or placed somewhere else altogether).

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I view the first model placed as a marker of base size

And it seems several others in this thread feel the same, yet RAW the first model IS on the board, not just a "marker".

Let's also keep in mind that this is very situational as not only to you have to scatter in a way that makes you Mishap, but you then have to roll a 1. And even if those things happen, the likelihood is very low that you could then fit all the Blue horrors in that spot.
This is hardly a "tactic" that could be used.

 Galef wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I view the first model placed as a marker of base size

And it seems several others in this thread feel the same, yet RAW the first model IS on the board, not just a "marker".

Let's also keep in mind that this is very situational as not only to you have to scatter in a way that makes you Mishap, but you then have to roll a 1. And even if those things happen, the likelihood is very low that you could then fit all the Blue horrors in that spot.
This is hardly a "tactic" that could be used.

On the other hand, the Misplaced result on the Deep Strike Mishap table states "Your unit may deploy the unit anywhere..." It doesn't say RE-deploy, so that's an indication that the model is not considered deployed until after you've gone past the place where you resolve deep strike mishaps.

Common sense says, the unit never makes it. If it suffers the mishap, just treat it like it never quite arrived. As the rules state, the unit is destroyed. You cannot adlib extension rules just anywhere. For example, rolling a one, say the whole unit is destroyed, But then a player can say; "I have an invulnerable save! See it didnt say I dont get that!" I understand Galefs reasoning but its wrong.

Placing the model on the VIA deep strike is not it entering play (though literally it is) it's base is used to determine where and how the deepstrike will or will not scatter. Reread the deepstrike sections and its quite clear. If a unit fails to arrive from reserves, it does not get to use any of its abilities and if it is removed from play by the roll of a one, it never made it out of reserves, unless stated otherwise. I don't see how anyone could think they can ignore or circumvent such a basic commen sense rule.

I'm not trying to be mean, and its perfectly fine if you are not familiar with deep strike rules, and have questions, thats fine. Nothing wrong with asking, but saying units off the table or being held in reserve can impact gameplay (without specific special rules to do so) or can ignore mishap is either a canard at best or an outright lie in attempt to cheat.

HIWPI is that the unit is destroyed and no split models are created, but that is because I like to infuse some...how you say? "common sense" into my games.

That still won't change my opinion that RAW, the first model is on the board and gets removed, thereby triggering the Split rule.
Heck, the FAQ even says that the -ONLY- way to prevent splits is through Instability. Is the Mishap "destroyed" rule considered Instability? No it isn't.

I will consult my BRB when I get home to see if the "via deep strike" rule refers to the first model as a "counter" or "marker", in which case I will happily concede my point
But if it just says "place the first model" than the model is on the board.

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The first model is on the table. Furthermore, any model in the unit (not just the first one) could cause a mishap, even if it is the last one. Thus, even if the first model was a counter/marker, the possibility of a mishap happening when the models are in place is there.

Arriving by Deep Strike, First Bullet wrote:• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position.[...]

Deep Strike Mishaps wrote:If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, [...], something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results.

Whether that means that the Split rule triggers or not, I am not convinced either way; but Galef's RAW argument does have basis.

The model is on the table as a marker. There is no indication that the model counts as deployed until after deep strike mishaps are taken care or the entire unit is deployed on the board without a mishap. Aren't the rules for horrors dealing only with units that have been deployed?

 doctortom wrote:
Aren't the rules for horrors dealing only with units that have been deployed?

Not really. It refers to any rule that removes them as a whole. This is reinforced by the FAQ that says only Instability can prevent splits.
So even if we want to continue discussing if the first model placed is a "marker" or not, that model/marker is still the point at which we must measure 6" to place the new split unit.

 doctortom wrote:
The model is on the table as a marker.

While that is a common and understandable convention, nowhere in the BRB does it mention it being a marker; so RAW, it is the actual model.

There is no indication that the model counts as deployed until after deep strike mishaps are taken care or the entire unit is deployed on the board without a mishap.

The whole Deep Striking procedure is the unit's deployment, yes.

Aren't the rules for horrors dealing only with units that have been deployed?

The rule does not specify.

Avadar wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
The model is on the table as a marker.

While that is a common and understandable convention, nowhere in the BRB does it mention it being a marker; so RAW, it is the actual model.

GW has however stated as much in past editions. There's no official clarification as to whether it is a 'model' or a 'marker' in this edition.

Does the rule for Blue Horrors operate on a model removed from play, or a unit?

Does the Mishap Result #1 state a different result trigger than the Blue Horrors rule? If so, does the game consider the terms synonymous?

Those are the first questions I would review.

Both, specifically at the end of the phase when the unit has suffered one or more casualties, just prior to the last model in the unit being removed as a casualty or "if a rule causes a whole unit of pink horrors to be removed at once"

Deep strike mishap says "the entire unit is destroyed!" The term "completely destroyed" is defined on page 13 of the BRB as "when all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties"

Well, I am glad you at least agree in spirit, as how you would play it.

And I don't think there is any ambiguity. That argument is more contrived than the fabled drop pods can move after deep strike because it doesn't say they can't argument. But if any players decided they want to break the deep strike rules, they will quickly find their oppents, either flat out refuses them, maybe accepts it and then will be an donkey-cave and wordplay games back at them (this is what I would do and break all the rules in my favor), to teach the cheater a lesson or the more likely scenario, people won't play with them.

Just be careful though, because if a units rules apply the moment the first unit is placed down to determine scatter, every other of its rules do for all other models as well. Which would make for quite a mess.

Though we all agree how it should be played, (thank the Emperor), just some things to consider if that train of logic/rule abuse is followed. Transports are desyroyed not the units they are carrying. As the trasport is placed and then the units are, because remember, its deployed before the scatter and mishap is resolved. Everything gets saves, feel no pain and reanimation protocal. The interceptor rules becomes very confusing. Just a few off the top of my head.

 Tsol wrote:
Well, I am glad you at least agree in spirit, as how you would play it.

I assume you are replying to me since you haven't quoted anyone else. But I certainly haven't agreed with anything "in spirit"

And I don't think there is any ambiguity. That argument is more contrived than the fabled drop pods can move after deep strike because it doesn't say they can't argument. But if any players decided they want to break the deep strike rules, they will quickly find their oppents, either flat out refuses them, maybe accepts it and then will be an donkey-cave and wordplay games back at them (this is what I would do and break all the rules in my favor), to teach the cheater a lesson or the more likely scenario, people won't play with them.

This is the second time you have used the word "cheater" in the discussion. It's a highly charged word with many negative connotations. Yet you haven't backed up your claims with rules quotes or pointing out the flaws in a persons argument.

Just be careful though, because if a units rules apply the moment the first unit is placed down to determine scatter, every other of its rules do for all other models as well. Which would make for quite a mess.

Though we all agree how it should be played, (thank the Emperor), just some things to consider if that train of logic/rule abuse is followed. Transports are desyroyed not the units they are carrying. As the trasport is placed and then the units are, because remember, its deployed before the scatter and mishap is resolved. Everything gets saves, feel no pain and reanimation protocal. The interceptor rules becomes very confusing. Just a few off the top of my head.

Or we actually follow the rules with correct timing and none of what you described can happen. You aren't allowed to take saves against "remove from play" effects. You must resolve rules one at a time unless otherwise specified. Which means the transport would be removed from play before units could disembark. The pink horror split rule is different in that it specifically says that before the last model is removed due to a special rule you perform an action.

Rather than talking about what "feels right" it would be more productive to explain your reasoning with rules quotes and logical arguments.

To me it makes sense that a Daemon ripping through reality would split in half if it found itself in a place that it shouldn't exist.

The issue isn't that if the rule triggers or not, it's having a valid point to measure 6".

I would not be comfortable measuring from a model placement prior to a scatter, as this is more of an action resolution than a deployment.

If you successfully place your first model, but mishap in placing further models, are they deployed at this point? They are on the table, but you haven't completed deploying.

JakeSiren wrote:
To me it makes sense that a Daemon ripping through reality would split in half if it found itself in a place that it shouldn't exist.

I agree. Some people have made the argument common sense dictates this should not happen. It's a Tzeentch unit and does all sorts of things that should not make sense, like split.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Wrath_of_Magnus_EN.pdf

Q: If the entire unit of Pink Horrors is destroyed, do you place
the Blue Horrors immediately? The Split special rule indicates
that you only immediately place the Blue Horrors if a ‘rule’
causes the entire unit of Pink Horrors to be wiped out (which
wounds like it is indicating something like Perils in the Warp,
etc.) but what about simple attrition? If I shoot and destroy 10
of 10 Pink Horrors, how do I place a unit of 20 or 40 Blue
Horrors within 6" of the Pink Horrors if they are no longer
there? Or, was the Split rule that talks about them being removed
all at once due to a rule meant to indicate simply any time they
are wiped out? It’s a bit ambiguous.
A: If a unit is wiped out, place the new unit immediately
before removing the last model as a casualty

Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if
they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire
unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes

..not sure if this helps or not

 reds8n wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Wrath_of_Magnus_EN.pdf

Spoiler:

Q: If the entire unit of Pink Horrors is destroyed, do you place
the Blue Horrors immediately? The Split special rule indicates
that you only immediately place the Blue Horrors if a ‘rule’
causes the entire unit of Pink Horrors to be wiped out (which
wounds like it is indicating something like Perils in the Warp,
etc.) but what about simple attrition? If I shoot and destroy 10
of 10 Pink Horrors, how do I place a unit of 20 or 40 Blue
Horrors within 6" of the Pink Horrors if they are no longer
there? Or, was the Split rule that talks about them being removed
all at once due to a rule meant to indicate simply any time they
are wiped out? It’s a bit ambiguous.
A: If a unit is wiped out, place the new unit immediately
before removing the last model as a casualty

Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if
they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire
unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes

..not sure if this helps or not

Yeah, this is why even though I may play it as not getting the new unit and move on, I see the RAW as you MUST create the new unit immediately as nothing but Instability can stop Splitting

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What if the initially placed model is Scattered in to a Mishap position (and Mishap 1)?

Where do you place the new unit? 6" from the Scatter point?

The unit is destroyed before it can be deployed...

 Charistoph wrote:
What if the initially placed model is Scattered in to a Mishap position (and Mishap 1)?

Where do you place the new unit? 6" from the Scatter point?

The unit is destroyed before it can be deployed...

Yes, the Scatter point. You place the first model. It scatters to where it cannot be, then you roll a 1. You would then measure the 6" from the point at which it scattered, as that is the point at which the last model was removed.
If after that, there is no valid place to put the new Blue horror unit, they too are destroyed and no Brimstones are created as indicated by the FAQ.

I like how people keep referring to the unit having to be "deployed". The FAQ clearly says NOTHING stops splitting, so why would a trivial thing like not being deployed matter? As long as we have a point on the board to measure 6" from (which we clearly do) then we are permitted to place the new unit of Blue Horrors.

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 Galef wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
What if the initially placed model is Scattered in to a Mishap position (and Mishap 1)?

Where do you place the new unit? 6" from the Scatter point?

The unit is destroyed before it can be deployed...

Yes, the Scatter point. You place the first model. It scatters to where it cannot be, then you roll a 1. You would then measure the 6" from the point at which it scattered, as that is the point at which the last model was removed.
If after that, there is no valid place to put the new Blue horror unit, they too are destroyed and no Brimstones are created as indicated by the FAQ.

I like how people keep referring to the unit having to be "deployed". The FAQ clearly says NOTHING stops splitting, so why would a trivial thing like not being deployed matter? As long as we have a point on the board to measure 6" from (which we clearly do) then we are permitted to place the new unit of Blue Horrors.

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Because being deployed provides a reference point as to its location and provides it opportunity to act and be acted upon in ways that do not address being in Reserves.. For example, do the Blue Horrors split at the end of the Game if the Pink Horrors never arrive from Reserves?

 Charistoph wrote:

Because being deployed provides a reference point as to its location

In this case we absolutely have a reference point. It is where the model scattered. Or where the "marker of the model" scattered. Even if you cannot place the model/marker there, it is still a point that exists and can be measured from.

 Charistoph wrote:

For example, do the Blue Horrors split at the end of the Game if the Pink Horrors never arrive from Reserves?

Yes, According to the FAQ, they do split as only failed Instability tests prevent splitting. But as there is no point to measure from and, more importantly, IT"S THE END OF THE GAME, no further actions can be completed.

HIWPI is that not only are the Pinks destroyed, but so are the Blues, giving 2VPs to the opponent if the mission calls for that. A further unit of Birms would not be created, however, as the FAQ addresses this too. If Blues cannot be placed, Brims are not created.

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 Galef wrote:


I like how people keep referring to the unit having to be "deployed". The FAQ clearly says NOTHING stops splitting, so why would a trivial thing like not being deployed matter? As long as we have a point on the board to measure 6" from (which we clearly do) then we are permitted to place the new unit of Blue Horrors.

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Well, to be fair, the arguments about being deployed were being made before the FAQ answer was brought up here.

 Galef wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Because being deployed provides a reference point as to its location

In this case we absolutely have a reference point. It is where the model scattered. Or where the "marker of the model" scattered. Even if you cannot place the model/marker there, it is still a point that exists and can be measured from.

That could be argued, as Misplaced results do not state that your opponent "redeploy the unit", but rather he "may deploy the unit", indicating that the unit has not been considered deployed at this point.

I admit it isn't solid, but is a case of noting context and possible precedence.

 Galef wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

For example, do the Blue Horrors split at the end of the Game if the Pink Horrors never arrive from Reserves?

Yes, According to the FAQ, they do split as only failed Instability tests prevent splitting. But as there is no point to measure from and, more importantly, IT"S THE END OF THE GAME, no further actions can be completed.

If no further actions can be completed, then the split is not allowed to happen as the end of the game (where no further game actions could be practically possible) is what destroys the Pink Horrors.

 Charistoph wrote:

If no further actions can be completed, then the split is not allowed to happen as the end of the game (where no further game actions could be practically possible) is what destroys the Pink Horrors.

Fair enough, I agree with that.

This is one of the VERY FEW cases in which I would actually play a rule contrary to how I perceive the RAW. "Spirit" of the game is great for clearing up vague situations, but this case seems so cut & dry (to me) that it is hard for me to think of it any other way.
But fortunately it is a situation that will occur so infrequently that if it ever does come up, I would be glad to just consider the Horrors destroyed and move on without getting into the discussion.

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