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Hi Dakka

This may be a silly question and indeed has probably been asked/answered in previous threads (very brief search comes up with nothing).

GW have released the Traitors Hate book and now the Traitor Legions book, why on earth did they not release a new CSM codex? I have a few theories but find it very frustrating going from a very out of date codex, it came out in 2012 if I'm not mistaken, that coming up to 5 years!!!

Is it because GW wants to spark the interest in CSM again but due to the lack of up to date models they need time to rerelease all the legion marines before releasing a brand new spanking glossy codex with all the new models and rules that they can then leave for another 5 years? Or is it because 8th is round the corner and there will be a big shake up to the format?

Now I'm not moaning or complaining but have been waiting for Chaos to be updated for three years now, love the new models and the new GW but wanted to get some thoughts of the state of play before dipping my toe in the traitor pool.

According to Sad Panda the design studio is not interested in doing any more updates for the main codices for this edition, apparently 7th is considered a lame duck. So don't expect a new book for CSM, Guard, or Tyranids until after we get the new edition.

Alkso 8th is coming around soon and, according to rumours, there will no longer be codeces instead there will be warscroll like releases.

So are you saying Traitor Legions is a sort of place holder until 8th hits?

Do you think they will update other the legion specific models?

 Xeones7 wrote:
So are you saying Traitor Legions is a sort of place holder until 8th hits?

Most likely, 8th ed is rumoured to have completely different mechanics to 2nd ed+ 40k so will need new warscrolls for all armies when it comes out.

 Xeones7 wrote:
Do you think they will update other the legion specific models?

Probably not until they release rules for the new models so that they can maximise the number of purchases.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xeones7 wrote:
So are you saying Traitor Legions is a sort of place holder until 8th hits?

Most likely, 8th ed is rumoured to have completely different mechanics to 2nd ed+ 40k so will need new warscrolls for all armies when it comes out.

 Xeones7 wrote:
Do you think they will update other the legion specific models?

Probably not until they release rules for the new models so that they can maximise the number of purchases.

God I know its coming. But at this point I think I would rather stick with 7th than have 400 bucks in books be invalidated. That could be enough to make a man stop playing. Maybe.

Table wrote:

God I know its coming. But at this point I think I would rather stick with 7th than have 400 bucks in books be invalidated. That could be enough to make a man stop playing. Maybe.

My friends and I are in a similar position, we'll see what 8th is like and if we don't like it we'll stick with 7th.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Table wrote:

God I know its coming. But at this point I think I would rather stick with 7th than have 400 bucks in books be invalidated. That could be enough to make a man stop playing. Maybe.

My friends and I are in a similar position, we'll see what 8th is like and if we don't like it we'll stick with 7th.

This is like the biggest reason I'm holding out in buying a codex. But for someone who is buying all these books I can imagine it sucks to have them all invalidated. But maybe it'l be for the better

The Fenris campaign books also have a TON of fluff. Not dissimilar to the End Times campaign books for Fantasy. Commence panic and burning of a Tyranid army on YouTube.

 Xeones7 wrote:
So are you saying Traitor Legions is a sort of place holder until 8th hits?

Do you think they will update other the legion specific models?

Notice that this and most supplements could work perfectly with a new replaced codex equivalent.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Xeones7 wrote:
So are you saying Traitor Legions is a sort of place holder until 8th hits?

Do you think they will update other the legion specific models?

Notice that this and most supplements could work perfectly with a new replaced codex equivalent.

Well yeah, that's what a supplement is. It supplements the codex until a new one is made

 timetowaste85 wrote:
The Fenris campaign books also have a TON of fluff. Not dissimilar to the End Times campaign books for Fantasy. Commence panic and burning of a Tyranid army on YouTube.

Id say we are still a good year out from the end. And I think it would be a dark eldar army burning on youtube if the parody is to remain constant.

More like half a year away, 8th cometh in June. Prepare yourself.

Table wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
The Fenris campaign books also have a TON of fluff. Not dissimilar to the End Times campaign books for Fantasy. Commence panic and burning of a Tyranid army on YouTube.

Id say we are still a good year out from the end. And I think it would be a dark eldar army burning on youtube if the parody is to remain constant.

Wasn't it a lizardmen army that got burned? Nids are the closest 40k equivalent.

It was a Dark Elf army being burned. Such a pointless waste, after all, he could've mailed it to me.

It's simple. They sold us the Fenris book early in the year, Traitors Hate months later, and now Wrath of Magnus and Traitor Legions to get our CSM updates.

.....and we'll all line up 6 months from now for the 8th edition CSM codex, which will be 99% cut and paste from these books and existing codex, with all the walkers changed over to monstrous creatures.

Which also my prediction for Codex Adeptus Astartes. 99% existing material, from the codex and Angels of Death, but walkers will be upgraded to MCs in 8th.

Codexes that have still have Walkers: Ork, CSM, SM, AM, AS
Codexes that will likely be updated in 8th: Ork, CSM, SM, AS

 mrhappyface wrote:
More like half a year away, 8th cometh in June. Prepare yourself.

Thats alot of fluff to smash in before june. Has there been a specific mention of a release date or is this all a rumor?

Still a rumor

Table wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
More like half a year away, 8th cometh in June. Prepare yourself.

Thats alot of fluff to smash in before june. Has there been a specific mention of a release date or is this all a rumor?

It's all rumours but it was Sad Panda who told us about them: the same guy who told us Traitors hate and Wrath of Magnus was coming so he is pretty reliable as 40k rumour sources come. He told us it would come sometime in 2017 and then someone else (it might have been Panda but I can't remember) mentioned June.

Anyone that is claiming 40k is going the way of aos is frankly talking crap, 8th will be pretty much the same as 7th with tweaks, sure "warscrolls" may make it in, but not the same stats, make-up and style as aos, they will be the same as current 40k stats just collected into one data sheet.

It boils down to this, would gw, as it is now, risk losing its flagship product for a couple of years like aos did to fantasy, aos is only just picking up since the general's handbook, prior to that is was dead in the water,and I'm sure some folk will claim "but I played it" no, since aos I've only ever seen it played in gw stores, I visit clubs all over the country on a regular basis, and I had never seen a game, until recently, gw won't take the risk of the same happening to 40k

 Formosa wrote:
Anyone that is claiming 40k is going the way of aos is frankly talking crap, 8th will be pretty much the same as 7th with tweaks, sure "warscrolls" may make it in, but not the same stats, make-up and style as aos, they will be the same as current 40k stats just collected into one data sheet.

It boils down to this, would gw, as it is now, risk losing its flagship product for a couple of years like aos did to fantasy, aos is only just picking up since the general's handbook, prior to that is was dead in the water,and I'm sure some folk will claim "but I played it" no, since aos I've only ever seen it played in gw stores, I visit clubs all over the country on a regular basis, and I had never seen a game, until recently, gw won't take the risk of the same happening to 40k

Just a related question, what do you think was more damaging to Fantasy/AoS? The wholesale rewrite of the game mechanics, or the utter wrecking and reforming of the background and fluff?

For me, the latter would be fantastically alienating but the former I'd welcome provided it's well thought out...

 Formosa wrote:
Anyone that is claiming 40k is going the way of aos is frankly talking crap, 8th will be pretty much the same as 7th with tweaks, sure "warscrolls" may make it in, but not the same stats, make-up and style as aos, they will be the same as current 40k stats just collected into one data sheet.

It boils down to this, would gw, as it is now, risk losing its flagship product for a couple of years like aos did to fantasy, aos is only just picking up since the general's handbook, prior to that is was dead in the water,and I'm sure some folk will claim "but I played it" no, since aos I've only ever seen it played in gw stores, I visit clubs all over the country on a regular basis, and I had never seen a game, until recently, gw won't take the risk of the same happening to 40k

It probably won't be as bad as rumours and scare mongering is making out, but hey: hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Just a related question, what do you think was more damaging to Fantasy/AoS? The wholesale rewrite of the game mechanics, or the utter wrecking and reforming of the background and fluff?

For me, the latter would be fantastically alienating but the former I'd welcome provided it's well thought out...

The destruction of the background and the poorly written fluff was what made most fantasy players leave, the complete re-write of the rules was probably just the icing on the cake.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Table wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
More like half a year away, 8th cometh in June. Prepare yourself.

Thats alot of fluff to smash in before june. Has there been a specific mention of a release date or is this all a rumor?

It's all rumours but it was Sad Panda who told us about them: the same guy who told us Traitors hate and Wrath of Magnus was coming so he is pretty reliable as 40k rumour sources come. He told us it would come sometime in 2017 and then someone else (it might have been Panda but I can't remember) mentioned June.

Well I certainly dont know anything myself. But I was around for the end times in warhammer fantasy. And observing the lore of 40 as up to wrath of magnus, we have a long way to go. If they are going to tie in 8th with the 40k end times. In my guesstimation itll be about a year. You can be sure GW is going to rake in as much cash as possible before a grand transition simply because of how rough the first year of AoS was. And as far as I can tell they still havent gained as many players as they lost, if local interest is any indication. 40k is just to big for them to throw out like they did for AoS. So either 8th is a ways away still or 8th wont be a transformative rule set but a cleaning up of 7th. I could be wrong, but I dont think I am. You never know.

 adamsouza wrote:
It's simple. They sold us the Fenris book early in the year, Traitors Hate months later, and now Wrath of Magnus and Traitor Legions to get our CSM updates.

.....and we'll all line up 6 months from now for the 8th edition CSM codex, which will be 99% cut and paste from these books and existing codex, with all the walkers changed over to monstrous creatures.

Which also my prediction for Codex Adeptus Astartes. 99% existing material, from the codex and Angels of Death, but walkers will be upgraded to MCs in 8th.

Codexes that have still have Walkers: Ork, CSM, SM, AM, AS
Codexes that will likely be updated in 8th: Ork, CSM, SM, AS

So your saying the Defiler might finally be made useful again?

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
According to Sad Panda the design studio is not interested in doing any more updates for the main codices for this edition, apparently 7th is considered a lame duck. So don't expect a new book for CSM, Guard, or Tyranids until after we get the new edition.

This seems obvious.
But what will happen to all those supplementary books if the new edition comes out?
I guess they will all be obsolete.

 adamsouza wrote:
It's simple. They sold us the Fenris book early in the year, Traitors Hate months later, and now Wrath of Magnus and Traitor Legions to get our CSM updates.

.....and we'll all line up 6 months from now for the 8th edition CSM codex, which will be 99% cut and paste from these books and existing codex, with all the walkers changed over to monstrous creatures.

Which also my prediction for Codex Adeptus Astartes. 99% existing material, from the codex and Angels of Death, but walkers will be upgraded to MCs in 8th.

Codexes that have still have Walkers: Ork, CSM, SM, AM, AS
Codexes that will likely be updated in 8th: Ork, CSM, SM, AS

I don't know if you're saying "Adeptus Mechanicus" or "Astra Militarum", but they both have walkers...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Anyone that is claiming 40k is going the way of aos is frankly talking crap, 8th will be pretty much the same as 7th with tweaks, sure "warscrolls" may make it in, but not the same stats, make-up and style as aos, they will be the same as current 40k stats just collected into one data sheet.

It boils down to this, would gw, as it is now, risk losing its flagship product for a couple of years like aos did to fantasy, aos is only just picking up since the general's handbook, prior to that is was dead in the water,and I'm sure some folk will claim "but I played it" no, since aos I've only ever seen it played in gw stores, I visit clubs all over the country on a regular basis, and I had never seen a game, until recently, gw won't take the risk of the same happening to 40k

Just a related question, what do you think was more damaging to Fantasy/AoS? The wholesale rewrite of the game mechanics, or the utter wrecking and reforming of the background and fluff?

For me, the latter would be fantastically alienating but the former I'd welcome provided it's well thought out...

From the people I've spoken to, it was a myriad of reasons.

1: lack of com's on gws part, no one knew what was happening and where the game was going.
2: wholesale destruction of the fluff and the "sigmarines" this made a lot of fans have a bitter taste or just laugh as aos as a kid's game.
3: kids rules, yep, like it or not the first set of rules to come out were for kids, bigger beard, talking to models and all that childish nonsense, this made a lot of people feel insulted, like gw was making fun of the fact they had killed off 20+ years of someone's hobby. It was bad practice.
4: the rules in general were not a touch on fantasy,they still aren't, it had its pluses and minuses but it's still not as good, but it's not trying to be, it's a different game and I feel a lot of people don't get this, then and now, aos is a skirmish game, fantasy was a battle game, it wasn't perfect but it was good, aos is not good, but it's getting There.

I could go on but suffice to say gw were having xbox 1 levels of full tard when it came to getting aos off the ground

Basically people left because they were too touchy on the subject and at the minimum opening they saw slights and griefing on a level dwa

AoS did very well in Spain, so I guess it's a case by case basis. And your argument for the UK doesn't really hold true once you consider there was a tournament of a 100+ players even before the GHB, with others having taken place (I remember that the points system is a composite of 2-3 models made by fans).

The main issue people have with AoS not being "good" is that they, by and large, don't go play scenarios. THOSE are the real balancing factors. Not good for pick-up games but it's clear GW wasn't trying to catter to that system with the rules and composition of the game.

But yeah the original fluff was ATROCIOUS. Gates of Azyr and AoS the book were very mediocre, the first part of Warstorm was balls to the wall bad. And another of the first novels was sucky too. Luckily it's gone better and the game too is picking up.

 adamsouza wrote:

Which also my prediction for Codex Adeptus Astartes. 99% existing material, from the codex and Angels of Death, but walkers will be upgraded to MCs in 8th.

Codexes that have still have Walkers: Ork, CSM, SM, AM, AS
Codexes that will likely be updated in 8th: Ork, CSM, SM, AS

Where is this idea even coming from? Wraithlords and Battlesuits have traditionally been MCs, nothing has switched from Walker to MC. New books still have Walkers. Necrons, AdMech, SW, etc.

Purifier wrote:I don't know if you're saying "Adeptus Mechanicus" or "Astra Militarum", but they both have walkers...

I was thinking Astra Militarum, but honestly the Astra Militarum and Adeptus Mechanicus walkers are walkers, and not dreadnaughts

lord_blackfang wrote: Where is this idea even coming from? Wraithlords and Battlesuits have traditionally been MCs, nothing has switched from Walker to MC. New books still have Walkers. Necrons, AdMech, SW, etc.

Eldar Wraithlords were originaly Eldar Dreadnaughts.

Tau Crisis suits were the turning point in design where things that would have been dreadnaughts started turning in to MCs.

AdMech walkers are real walkers, they don't have arms and duke it out in assaults.

The Necron Triarch Stalker, is a bigger Tomb Spider, with half the survivability and twice the cost of a Tomb Spyder, it should be a MC.

Imperial Dreadnaughts are universally pretty gak in 7th, so bad that GW errata'd extra attacks onto them in a stop gak manner to give them something.

The new munitions containers have switched over to the equivelent wounds and toughness instead of Armor Value and Hull Points.

Battle For Vedros Dreadnaughts have toughness and wounds.

Grey Knight Dreadknights are basically giant dreadnaughts, but have MC statlines.

It's not coming out of no where. There is a design shift away from dreadnaughts and towards MCs.