Pouncey wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...do we have a more insightful look into how the GW design team thinks?

Every WD batrep ever. I vaguely remember one from 6 or 7 years ago where one of the main devs at the time (possibly Matt Ward) charged five TH/SS Terminators at a massive horde of Genestealers. The batrep text was all like, "the Emperor's Finest shall not be intimidated by these aliens!", then they charged. The inevitable occured, with all five Terminators were smushed at I6, and the batrep is all like, "the aliens vanquished all the mighty Terminators! How unexpected!"

It was at that point I realised GW don't play their games.

The precise moment I stopped caring about WD batreps was when there was a reference to a "practice game" that went completely the other way in the Island of Blood intro.

At that point I stopped giving a damn, since I concluded the following:

1-Batreps are intended to showcase the new army to drive sales.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The salt about frost weapons is real.

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The salt about frost weapons is real.

ANY item/weapon that removes an entire model from the game deserves salt.

The amount of space wolf units that can take Hellfrost is minimal, I can name like 4, one of which being unique. Also, it is so situational that in any of my games it has never even made a different.

If Long Fangs could take it, I would understand the salt, I would also buy some long fangs, but I would get where you're coming from.

There are so many other things to be angry about in that game, a stupid dice roll is near the bottom of the list.

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The salt about frost weapons is real.

ANY item/weapon that removes an entire model from the game deserves salt.

The amount of space wolf units that can take Hellfrost is minimal, I can name like 4, one of which being unique. Also, it is so situational that in any of my games it has never even made a different.

If Long Fangs could take it, I would understand the salt, I would also buy some long fangs, but I would get where you're coming from.

There are so many other things to be angry about in that game, a stupid dice roll is near the bottom of the list.

That doesn't disprove my statement though. Simply removing a model is strictly toxic and no fun for the person losing something they've wanted to use. It completely bypasses the rules, the text, and everything else. That's why it was such a big issue when SW's first came out and they had that line psyker power that made you take I tests or be removed.

So then get angry about magnus, ya know the giant flying monster with 2 D shots a turn (3 if your opponent has D). Get angry about the wraithknights and the S, not a silly rule that has never come into play in any game I have played.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too many things have EW anyway, I welcome anything that gets rid of e'm easy.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Too many things have EW anyway, I welcome anything that gets rid of e'm easy.

Then you lack strategy and like easy "I win" buttons.

OR perhaps I am so good that I don't need the EW crutch to keep my important units alive. Who knows? Or I dislike the face that character X doesn't go poof when an artillery shell the size of him falls on him, but character Y goes poof when a meltagun is pointed at him.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well I think its stupid, and I am more than happy to remove them with as little effort as possible. Or rather, I'd be happy to do so if I could fit some of that sweet remove from play stuff in my lists, oh well.

 Don Savik wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
Its kind of pathetic how pessimistic people can be. I watched the stream, and I can guarantee you it wasn't a rigged corporate charade to sell the most OP units. It was 2 guys just having a regular game, one of which was new to tzeentch, as guess what, every single person playing wrath of magnus stuff is. They even did the math when Magnus died, failing everything he did was a 2% chance of ever happening, and now people in this thread are whining about how OP hellfrost is all of a sudden.

The very concept of games workshop setting up a casual game on twitch for fun is just too much for people apparently.

Can't we just have fun anymore, guys?

Here there is none accusing GW (at least, in this instance) of a "rigged corporate charade". You failed spectacularly to understand what people complained about.
We are well aware of the design issue of GW rules. those are not trivial, because they had an impact on the demise of one of their main line (WHFB).

People are not criticising what happened per se, but the fact that GW seems to ignore their own rules. This suggest to most of us that they have not faith in their system, and for a reason, because is an unbalanced, convoluted mess that casts a shadow on a system we all love, or at least want to love. The design team shows more often than not to be clueless and amateurish, and this is just another example. For further evidence of how sloppy they are, check the Codex: Imperial Agents thread.

The frost weapon is just an example of what's wrong with 40k nowadays: useless, unclear, redundant rules that stack on each other, and incoherent fluff added to special snowflakes loved by a designer (this specific designer is infamous for that) that just does not fit with the universe, while other factions are left in the dust. What happens in the report just triggered comments on the weapon. Again, you failed spectacularly to understand that, too.

What does fun means? For me, is to play with my friends a well designed game. None of us is a competitive cheesemonger, but we want to be challenged by the game and by each other, and this can be possible only with a decent ruleset. Asking for something smart is asking for having fun.

Did I say anyone said it was a 'rigged corporate charade'? I wasn't quoting anyone. People said that GW is using it to push models. I don't think a 650 point magnus worth 130 dollars dying instantly does that. What did I not get exactly?

"we are well aware of....." Are you speaking for everyone? I was unaware of these forums being a hivemind.

As for the design team, they weren't playing the game. This wasn't a game to test rules or make rules. They didn't forget rules actually, the rhino died in the enemy turn so the charge was legal. And if they did make any mistakes, so what? I don't think I've played a single game of 40k were someone doesn't forget some obscure rule because the bloated, unorganized ruleset is confusing. And yes, the design team is responsible for that, but that wasn't a factor in the twitch stream. Did you even watch the stream or are you making accusations based on what your hivemind thinks?

Frost weapons came out almost 3 years ago. The most you'll see in a tournament list is 2 stormwolves worth. What's actually wrong with 40k these days is scatbikes, wraiths, and grav, not obscure silly rules that might as well not exist like hellfrost. I get it, you don't like space wolves, and that's fine, but special snowflake rules? Oh you mean like thousand sons getting to fly around on discs and having special demons, special terminators, and a primarch that other legions can't have! Or do you hate Thousands Sons too? I'm curious as to what specific armies fit your narrow minded criteria. Games Workshop has been expanding lore and factions for a long time now, and you can either continue to complain about it, or just....you know.....suck it up or stop playing. Me personally, if I don't like playing a game, I don't play it. Decent rulesets make it easier to play games well, you are correct, but that doesn't stop a lot of people from having fun with the current rules. As long as you stay away from cheese (which is really easy to do) then you can have a great time with 40k. Smart =/= fun for everyone.

 Don Savik wrote:

 nintura wrote:


You know the points cost of those sorcerers on discs? How about 190 base with no other upgrades? For a toughness 5 3+/4++ with only 2 master levels. My 1850 army with Magnus had a whopping 19 models in it, and 10 of those were rubrics. Care to guess how hard that is to take objectives when you have 2 squads? Those terminators? 250 points for 5 while you get what? 5 for 170? Yeah, they get +1 invuln save, but no ap 2 weapons and their heavy weapons are a joke. 30 points for a half assault cannon? 20 points for a half typhoon missile launcher that has half the range, half the uses? Yes the army is tough sure. But it's tiny. Everything is overpriced.

So we only hate 'special snowflake' rules if they're good? It's kind of hard to follow people's criteria sometimes.

And you don't just have to use the Wrath of Magnus models, you have access to the entire codex chaos space marines. I mean, cmon. I play orks, we don't have any ap 3 melee weapons. Preaching to the choir here.

 Don Savik wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:

 nintura wrote:


You know the points cost of those sorcerers on discs? How about 190 base with no other upgrades? For a toughness 5 3+/4++ with only 2 master levels. My 1850 army with Magnus had a whopping 19 models in it, and 10 of those were rubrics. Care to guess how hard that is to take objectives when you have 2 squads? Those terminators? 250 points for 5 while you get what? 5 for 170? Yeah, they get +1 invuln save, but no ap 2 weapons and their heavy weapons are a joke. 30 points for a half assault cannon? 20 points for a half typhoon missile launcher that has half the range, half the uses? Yes the army is tough sure. But it's tiny. Everything is overpriced.

So we only hate 'special snowflake' rules if they're good? It's kind of hard to follow people's criteria sometimes.

And you don't just have to use the Wrath of Magnus models, you have access to the entire codex chaos space marines. I mean, cmon. I play orks, we don't have any ap 3 melee weapons. Preaching to the choir here.

Do you make things up as you go? I'm talking about any attack that just removes a model, not special snowflakes. There's a reason 1k sons are considered weak over in the tactica for them.

Because if you look carefully, my comment was replying to someone else, not you. Then you came in with a defense to what I was arguing, which was his comment about special snowflake rules like hellfrost. What was I making up exactly?

 BBAP wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
People said that GW is using it to push models. I don't think a 650 point magnus worth 130 dollars dying instantly does that.

QFT. Also because I lol'd. I'm not sure where anyone got the idea this was supposed to show off the WoM units, or why anyone would think that when there's a Helfrost weapon on the table. Maybe they did it to show off Helfrost? Tryna shift dem Stormwolves or something.

tneva82 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Yes - GW does not employ tournament players that take min/max lists for their reports. Their reports have never had min/max lists, which is something also complained about since the beginning of the internet on AOL chat rooms in the 90s when discussing white dwarf reports and how "unrealistic they are".

Not just theirs... I've rarely seen anything on youtube which looked like top tournament players with top lists - I know there are some but it's really a minority.

Maybe because tournament top players prefer spending time tuning up their tournament performance while those willing to spend time to produce quality video BR(junky ones aren't even worth making) are less interested in tournament play?

Making videos isn't quick process(especially quality) so if somebody spends that time then odds are they either have no other life or they aren't top tournament players. There's only so much one can do in a day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:
And I agree. S: D should not remove a model. It should be super powerful for sure. But not strictly remove. It could be something as simple as d6+3 if you roll a 6. Sure it has a chance to kill your big model, but it isn't guaranteed at least. There's no reason to progress from 1 wound > d3 wounds > d6 wounds > remove. That kind of power leap is just uncalled for.

S does not remove model. But actually S is more powerful than hellfrost. So before touching hellfrost touch S first. Despite it not removing any models outright.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well I think its stupid, and I am more than happy to remove them with as little effort as possible. Or rather, I'd be happy to do so if I could fit some of that sweet remove from play stuff in my lists, oh well.

Exactly. Because that's what YOU want. You want the easy way. You don't want your opponent to have fun playing a game. Removing models is not fun, it doesn't require strategy, it's luck. People spend hundreds of dollars and weeks painting a big model, so what's the point of not getting to use them. That's whats toxic.

Hmm. Every game I enter many models I have gets removed from board. With possible exception of all out of LOS(not even then) or in reserve situations. That's life. I have lost my leman russes and land raiders before they move so many times even without S(no such thing in our games) or hellfrost(ditto)

tneva82 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
You said it yourself. S: D is NOT more powerful than Hellfrost. It doesn't remove the model. Is 1d6+6 powerful? Sure, but it never beats 100% removal. Should it be toned down? I've already said as much. Dying from getting hit is one thing, just straight up removing models is another. A single wound infantry or tank is not a big deal. A LoW who's meant to be around for most of the game, and is a large part of your army should not. Hell, if you removed Magnus first turn, I'd conceded, after all, why play a 1200 point army vs 1850, you're never going to win, or even likely to have fun playing it.

It's going to affect things lot more reliably than hellfrost and d6+6 is instakill on pretty much anything so on the 6 there's no practical difference. Difference comes on results OTHER than 6...

Would Magnus have survived 6 from S? I don't think so. 7 wounds is minimum on d6+6.

What things don't die to S rolling 6 that would die to hellfrost?

And I have had LOW's one-turned before I get to even move. Those are tad tougher to hide than most stuff for obvious reason...Boohoo.