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"Q: How do special rules like Hatred, Preferred Enemy and Monster Hunter work when targeting a mixed unit that contains models your special rule effects as well as modelsit doesn’t?
A: The rules mentioned are used if any model in the target unit is of the appropriate type."

Would this extend to cursed earth to include non daemon models? They wouldn't gain +1 to their invulnerable.
But what about the second part about deepstriking? "...friendly units with the daemon special rule..."

Following the logic for hatred, a unit with at least one daemon model would be a unit with the daemon special rule and thus would be able to deepstrike with no scatter even if you include a non daemon IC.

Here is how I would see it.

The FAQ said that, unless stated otherwise, rules for a model do not carry over to other models in the unit for extra benefits. From this we would assume that the unit cannot be treated as a 'Daemon unit' for purposes of Cursed Earth DS benefits.

The quote you have taken from the FAQ deals with rules that affect models, not units. Therefore I would say Cursed Earth does not prevent mixed units of Daemons/Non-Daemons from scattering.

Cursed Earth doesn't affect units. It only affects models with in 12"

 CrownAxe wrote:
Cursed Earth doesn't affect units. It only affects models with in 12"

The part concerning deep strike not scattering affects "units with the daemon special rule".

 CrownAxe wrote:
Cursed Earth doesn't affect units. It only affects models with in 12"

I'm talking about the deepstrike part. "In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from deepstrike reserve so long as the first model is placed withing 12" of the psyker."

I've always treated that as requiring that unit to be all daemon models, so if you added an IC, it wouldn't count for the purposes of not scattering.
I'm not so sure now. Units don't have the daemon special rule, models have. So I'm thinking that it's enough that the unit contains a model with the daemon rule. Just like it's enough for a unit to contain a hated model to count the unit as being hated.

Models don't deep strike units do. All the models have to have the rule for the unit to benefit unless specified otherwise

blaktoof wrote:
Models don't deep strike units do. All the models have to have the rule for the unit to benefit unless specified otherwise

Not sure I follow? What does the ability to deepstrike have to do with counting them as a unit with the daemon special rule?

I'm not saying you could deepstrike a non deepstrike IC if they join a unit of daemons. I'm just wondering whether being in a unit of daemons allows the combined unit to deepstrike without scatter. Obviously with that IC being able to deepstrike in the first place.

I would say yes as a unit that has a model with the Daemon USR makes it valid for Hatred (Daemons) and Preferred Enemy (Daemons). That means that it is clearly a unit with the Daemon special rule, which is what the deepstrike scatter is checking for.

JakeSiren wrote:
I would say yes as a unit that has a model with the Daemon USR makes it valid for Hatred (Daemons) and Preferred Enemy (Daemons). That means that it is clearly a unit with the Daemon special rule, which is what the deepstrike scatter is checking for.

But both Monster hunter and Preferred enemy specifically call out "when targeting a unit with at least one model". Honestly the FAQ on this was uneeded as they clearly outline what to do in the case of mixed units. Hatred needed clarifying because it didn't specifically say.

IMO this FAQ ruling has nothing to do with the argument concerning cursed earth: cursed earth tells you a unit with the Daemon USR does not scatter. I have outlined above why a mixed unit cannot be treated as a Daemon unit.

Just because the daemon rule is not passed on to the other models in the unit doesn't mean the unit doesn't have the daemon rule. Where in the rules did it say unit qualities are measured separately from the qualities of the component models?

Fhionnuisce wrote:
Just because the daemon rule is not passed on to the other models in the unit doesn't mean the unit doesn't have the daemon rule. Where in the rules did it say unit qualities are measured separately from the qualities of the component models?

If cursed earth allowed units mixed of Daemon and CSM to not scatter then it would be worded "a unit containing a model with the Daemon special rule does not scatter when it deep strikes" in the same way that prefered enemy has given you permission to re-roll 1s against a unit containing a model that you have preferred enemy against.
As it is cursed earth has not given us the same permissions that other rules do when they allow us to target a unit because of a model it contains, therefore mixed units if Daemons and CSM scatter.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
Just because the daemon rule is not passed on to the other models in the unit doesn't mean the unit doesn't have the daemon rule. Where in the rules did it say unit qualities are measured separately from the qualities of the component models?

If cursed earth allowed units mixed of Daemon and CSM to not scatter then it would be worded "a unit containing a model with the Daemon special rule does not scatter when it deep strikes" in the same way that prefered enemy has given you permission to re-roll 1s against a unit containing a model that you have preferred enemy against.
As it is cursed earth has not given us the same permissions that other rules do when they allow us to target a unit because of a model it contains, therefore mixed units if Daemons and CSM scatter.

I could just as easily say if you were right they would have written it as "a unit consisting of only models with the daemon special rule does not scatter when it deep strikes". Both wordings have been used in other rules. Assumptions about how rules could/should be written is not rules support for your claim.

A unit is a group of models banded together (BRB page 9). One of said models has the daemon rule. Therefore the unit has the daemon rule unless you can show rules that justify ignoring a model in determining what rules the unit has.

And now we are at a deadlock due to shoddy rule writing. A rule worded as "a unit with the ... rule" can both mean a unit containing one model with the Daemon rule and a unit composed entirely of models with the Daemon rule. As there have been rules calling out both of these situations and this being a rule which calls out neither leaves a lot of ambiguity.

This was released before KDK came out: back then there were no oppurtunities for mixing Daemon and non-daemons in a unit. RAW do not solve it either way, RAI is probably that it is only to be used by Daemons and not KDK. But you could argue it either way so no answer will be reached in this thread.

 mrhappyface wrote:
And now we are at a deadlock due to shoddy rule writing. A rule worded as "a unit with the ... rule" can both mean a unit containing one model with the Daemon rule and a unit composed entirely of models with the Daemon rule. As there have been rules calling out both of these situations and this being a rule which calls out neither leaves a lot of ambiguity.

This was released before KDK came out: back then there were no oppurtunities for mixing Daemon and non-daemons in a unit. RAW do not solve it either way, RAI is probably that it is only to be used by Daemons and not KDK. But you could argue it either way so no answer will be reached in this thread.

Incorrect. Obliterators and an IC in terminator armour gives you a daemon and non daemon in the same unit where this situation could apply. And again I ask, why would you ignore a model in determining the rules the unit has?

How does GW normally tell the difference between a unit with a model with a rule and a unit with a rule? They give the wording "a unit consisting only of models" and "a unit containing at least one model", we work in a permission rule set: the rules have to give you permission. Cursed earth does not give you permission to only have one model with the rule like other rules do. We ignore the model when deciding what rules a unit has because neither cursed earth nor the Daemon USR gives us permission to treat the unit as having the Daemon USR.

The defintion of unit gives you permission. The unit is a group of models banded together. So the rules of the units are the rules of those models. You would need permission to exclude a rule. The fact that they have at times used a redundant templating doesn't make that less true.

If we get right down to it, I don't think there is ever a situation when a unit actually has a rule. The rules on the unit datasheet are rules of the models in the unit. Its only by considering those individual model rules at a unit level that we can ever consider whether the unit has a rule.

Cursed earth neither denies nor gives you permission on how to determine if a unit is a unit with the daemon special rule. You said so yourself.
We know a unit consisting entirely of models with the daemon usr would classify because duh. With a mixed unit we may or may not have permission depending on how you read the power.
We don't have any way of determining for sure, but I thought the faq on hatred, while far from an exact match, is the closest thing to an answer we have.
You could say, for exemple, that Hatred(Abaddon) checks if the unit you're attacking is a unit with the 'Abaddon' "type" and it's now enough for that unit to have abaddon in it.

The rules of a unit on a datasheet are blanket rules for the unit, this passes over to give models within the unit the rules but it is still the unit with the special rule. Placing a model with a special rule within a unit does not give that unit the special rule, in fact the FAQ specifically states that a unit does not gain the special rules of a joined IC and visavers. Therefore the special rules for a unit are different from that of the special rules of the model.

 mrhappyface wrote:
The rules of a unit on a datasheet are blanket rules for the unit, this passes over to give models within the unit the rules but it is still the unit with the special rule. Placing a model with a special rule within a unit does not give that unit the special rule, in fact the FAQ specifically states that a unit does not gain the special rules of a joined IC and visavers. Therefore the special rules for a unit are different from that of the special rules of the model.

Grab a codex and look at the page that tells you how to read the datasheet. It tells you explicitly the rules listed are special rules of the models in the unit.

Even if that may be true, does that change the fact that the FAQ takes away the permission for a unit to have a special rule if not all members of the unit have it and if there is no extra permission giving all members of the unit said rule?

 mrhappyface wrote:
Even if that may be true, does that change the fact that the FAQ takes away the permission for a unit to have a special rule if not all members of the unit have it and if there is no extra permission giving all members of the unit said rule?

Could you quote the part of the faq that says that? It's rather long.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Even if that may be true, does that change the fact that the FAQ takes away the permission for a unit to have a special rule if not all members of the unit have it and if there is no extra permission giving all members of the unit said rule?

It says nothing of the sort. The FAQ says the rules of a model don't carry over to other models in the unit. That is completely different from whether the unit has the rule. Without rules text to clarify another definition for having a rule or being a unit with a rule it is a simple test for existence. Is the rule present in the unit? If yes, the unit has that rule.

Show me anywhere in the rules that say you determine the rules a unit has in any different way than looking at the collected rules of the models in the unit.

Let's do a simple break test on your theory.

The endurance psychic power gives a unit relentless, this gives the models within the unit relentless. You have said that if a model in a unit has the Daemon USR then the unit has the Daemon USR, by the same virtue that gave relentless to the unit from endurance you have now given all models in the unit the Daemon USR.

By saying that a unit has a special rule you have now given it to all of the models in that unit, in the same way that almost all blessings give a models in a unit a USR by giving the unit the USR.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Let's do a simple break test on your theory.

The endurance psychic power gives a unit relentless, this gives the models within the unit relentless. You have said that if a model in a unit has the Daemon USR then the unit has the Daemon USR, by the same virtue that gave relentless to the unit from endurance you have now given all models in the unit the Daemon USR.

By saying that a unit has a special rule you have now given it to all of the models in that unit, in the same way that almost all blessings give a models in a unit a USR by giving the unit the USR.

False conclusion and a misrepresentation. I said the unit is considered to have all rules of the component models. I never stated all models have all the rules of the unit. It doesn't have to go both ways.

In your example the power gave Relentless to the unit so to all the models in that group that have banded together. If you look at the unit rules the unit has Relentless and Daemon since both are present in the unit. If you look at the individual models all have Relentless since an effect gave that rule to them all, but only the one has Daemon rule because it started with it and no effect has caused any other models to get it.

I am showing here that the unit can have special rules rather than the models. That psychic power did not give the models relentless but rather gave the unit relentless as stated in it's entry. Because this power said the unit has relentless all the models in the unit had relentless. If you try to say that the unit has the Daemon USR (whether or not that is just a summination of the rules the models in the unit have) then you have to give all models in the unit that USR by the same way that relentless was passed from the unit to the models.

You may give your argument but I may be some time responding as I am going to try to get some sleep. Who knows, maybe in the morning I will completely give up my argument and accept your ruling.

The actual wording on Endurance is that it "targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power us in effect, all models in the target unit gain . . ."

So still giving rules to the models in the unit, not to the unit itself. Even if it were, that is still a situation of an effect giving the rule and does not mean or even imply that all models must have all rules of the unit.

Endurance doesn't give a unit relentless. It targets a unit and then gives all models in that unit relentless.
Mental fortitude on the other hand indeed confers fearless to a unit. There are few issues with that though.
Fearless checks for models with the fearless special rule, so on a strict reading, giving a unit fearless does nothing.

Cursed Earth has a similar problem in that there are no units that have the daemon special rule in that sense. There are only units consisting of models that each have the daemon special rule. So you wouldn't be able to use the non-scatter part of cursed earth at all.

So strict RAW is broken, no surprise there. That leaves us interpreting both ways. Giving a unit a special rule most likely gives each model in the unit that special rule.
The reverse isn't necessarily true. "A unit with the X special rule" could be read as "a unit containing at least one model with the X special rule" or in the stricter reading of "a unit with the X special rule". Cursed earth makes little sense in the strict reading, implying it actually means checking for the existance of any one model in the unit.

So I'd say having you only need a single model with the daemon special rule for cursed earth.

You make a persuasive and solid argument Fhionnuisce, I shall yield that RAW it can definitely be interpreted that a unit with a rule does not have to be rule that all models in the unit share.

I realise in my sleep deprived state I managed to use one of the few blessings that is worded as giving the rule to the models and not the unit. :p
Next time I will go to bed earlier and not stay up argueing on the internet.

Good luck with future rule jousts for you have bested me today (well yesterday).