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Hey guys, i just got the imperial agents codex and i have a quick question.
if you don't know, the IA codex involves lots of options to include very small detatchements to you imperium army.
so i was wondering: can i start a unit in a flyer from a different detatchment?
thanks in advance.

It appears that the only units in CIA that can start embarked on a flyer (the Valkyrie) are the Officer of the Fleet by his self, or the Inquisitorial Acolytes if they take a Valkyrie as a DT. No other combination works.

SJ

You know, I thought Jefferson was giving the correct answer but then there is also this from the Tactics board:

Pardon the intrusion but is it not that if you combine models from different factions into the same unit, eg an inquisitor in a grey knight squad, that the unit becomes both factions.

A recent example is that of the deathwatches beacon Angelis allowing you to deepstrike a unit but only if it is a deathwatch unit. You would then attatch a librarian holding this relic to any squad and as it gained the deathwatch faction the whole unit would be able to deepstrike.

Would it not work in a similar fashion? The inquisitor would now have the grey knight factions, allowing him to embark on a landraider because that is his faction now?

So now I am not so sure. If it works how that poster believes it did, then you do have some flexibility for starting units in flyers from different detachments (just make sure to put an Officer of the Fleet with them).

Units with models from different Factions are considered to be all those Factions.

Per the FAQ, and with no written support in the rulebook, Battle Brothers (i.e. friendly units with a different Faction) cannot start the game embarked on a Transport.

 Charistoph wrote:
Units with models from different Factions are considered to be all those Factions.

Per the FAQ, and with no written support in the rulebook, Battle Brothers (i.e. friendly units with a different Faction) cannot start the game embarked on a Transport.

So, and I apologize if I'm misunderstanding this, but could the Officer of the Feet join a unit and then have this new unit begin the game embarked as the unit would count as Imperial Navy Faction + whatever else?

ExFideFortis wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Units with models from different Factions are considered to be all those Factions.

Per the FAQ, and with no written support in the rulebook, Battle Brothers (i.e. friendly units with a different Faction) cannot start the game embarked on a Transport.

So, and I apologize if I'm misunderstanding this, but could the Officer of the Feet join a unit and then have this new unit begin the game embarked as the unit would count as Imperial Navy Faction + whatever else?

Yeah, I'm confused because that's definitely what it seems like to me.

The FAQ, as I read this, would prohibit you from putting a Culexus in a Space Marine Drop Pod, but it shouldn't prevent you from doing something like putting Tigurius joined to a Grey Knight Terminator squad into a Drop Pod. At that point, the unit isn't Battle Brothers of the Drop Pod anymore: it's the same faction.

Except that it is also a different faction. The unit has both SM and GK factions. What faction is allowed to start in a SM faction transport? Only SM faction units. Does your unit have a faction that is other than SM? Yes. So no go.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Except that it is also a different faction. The unit has both SM and GK factions. What faction is allowed to start in a SM faction transport? Only SM faction units. Does your unit have a faction that is other than SM? Yes. So no go.

But if the mixed unit is considered to be all the factions involved then wouldn't it be eligible because it is indeed from the SM faction? It is both SM faction and GK faction at once, fully SM and fully GK it doesn't create a new "SMGK" faction. Or maybe I'm way off base here.

So here's the FAQ from November

Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.

Is GK Battle Brothers with SM? Yes. Is the unit you're trying to cram in there a GK unit? Yes. Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other's Transport vehicles during deployment? No.

ExFideFortis wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Units with models from different Factions are considered to be all those Factions.

Per the FAQ, and with no written support in the rulebook, Battle Brothers (i.e. friendly units with a different Faction) cannot start the game embarked on a Transport.

So, and I apologize if I'm misunderstanding this, but could the Officer of the Feet join a unit and then have this new unit begin the game embarked as the unit would count as Imperial Navy Faction + whatever else?

The "whatever else" is the problem.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Except that it is also a different faction. The unit has both SM and GK factions. What faction is allowed to start in a SM faction transport? Only SM faction units. Does your unit have a faction that is other than SM? Yes. So no go.

I see where you're coming from but that doesn't appear to be the literal language in the FAQ.

"Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No."

And:

"Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes."

What's missing here for your interpretation is exclusivity. Let's make two rules from these:

1. Battle Brothers cannot start embarked in each others' transports.

2. Two Detachments with the same Faction can start in each others' transports.
-Note that it does not say Two Detachments with only the same Faction.

So what's a Battle Brother? Let's turn to the Rules:

"You can include models from any number of different Factions in the same army if you wish".

Alright, first step: all Factions can be in the same army.

"Irrespective of the method you use to choose your army..."

So these rules apply if you're battle-forged or unbound and regardless of what formations you're using.

"...this section tells you how models from different Factions fight alongside each other".

The Allies section is the exclusive source for rules on this topic.

"In the case of older publications, the Faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex's title".

C:IA is not an older publication so disregard.

"In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of".

C:IA is not a supplement, it's a Codex, so disregard as well.

"Battle Brothers
Units from the same army that are Battle Brothers treat each other as 'friendly units' for all rules purposes. This means, for example, that units:
Can benefit from the Warlord Trait of a Warlord that is a Battle Brother.
Can be joined by an Independent Character that is a Battle Brother.
Are counted as being friendly units for the targeting of Battle Brothers' psychic powers, abilities and so on.
Can use special abilities to repair Hull Points, Immobilised or Weapon Destroyed results on Battle Brothers' vehicles.
Can use modifiers and re-rolls that apply to Reserve Rolls that are granted by a Battle Brother's model.
Can embark on each other's Transport vehicles".

Noting that nothing in this really provides a definition. This leaves us only with the Matrix, which I won't reproduce here.

Open your copy of the book, however and look at the Matrix. Armies of the Imperium is obviously Battle Brothers with Armies of the Imperium. Look at the italicized language:

"Units that have the following Factions are considered to be Armies of the Imperium".

Notice that it isn't really exclusive language. Anything with any of those Factions is part of the Armies of the Imperium. It doesn't matter if it also has another Faction and is multi-Faction. If it did, the sentence would read: "Units that have only the following Factions are considered to be Armies of the Imperium".

Additionally, even though it is unsaid, logically we know that the Matrix does not make it so that 2 Adepta Sororitas units count as Battle Brothers despite the fact that they are part of the Armies of the Imperium. This obviously supersedes #5.

So let's resummarize our rules so far:

1. Battle Brothers cannot start embarked in each others' transports.

2. Two Detachments with the same Faction can start in each others' transports.
-Note that it does not say Two Detachments with only the same Faction.

3. Armies of the Imperium is an unexclusive category on the Allies Matrix.

4. 2 Units of the same Faction are not Battle Brothers despite this not being explicitly stated.

We also know from another source that if an IC joins a unit that unit gets both the IC's Faction and its original. This becomes Rule #5.

Since the Faction of the entire unit is changing, every model in the unit must be changed to reflect both Factions (like with Preferred Enemy targeting a mixed unit but working on all models in it). This is Rule #6.

Let's apply these rules to our situation: we have one unit that is both Faction Inquisition and Faction Aeronautica (I'm abbreviating that name).

1. Battle Brothers cannot embark on each others' transports.

2. Two units of the same Faction can.

So is this unit Battle Brothers or the same Faction? Well...

3. They are both Armies of the Imperium, which is unexclusive.

4+5. They share a faction in common, however, and thus should not use the Allies Matrix as it relates to that Faction.

6. Every model in the unit is both Factions.

Returning to #1 and #2:

Your position is that since the unit has Faction: Inquisition in addition to Faction: Aeronautica, it should count as Battle Brothers and be prohibited from embarking. This misinterprets Rule #1, however, as it assumes they remain Battle Brothers when they do not. The Officer of the Fleet is both Faction: Inquisition and Faction: Aeronautica per #4, #5 and #6. The unit he is joined to is both Faction: Inquisition and Faction: Aeronautica. They thus match as much as two units from the Adepta Sororitas.

What about the transport? The Transport is Faction: Aeronautica, but is it treated as Battle Brothers to unit or is it treated as the same Faction?

The answer to that lies in the fact that the FAQ wording is not exclusive:

"Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes."

The transport and the unit do have a Faction in common: Aeronautica. This is true for every model in the unit. Arguing that because they also have a Faction uncommon to the transport, specifically Inquisition, and thus should be barred as Battle Brothers, has no basis in the Rules or the FAQ as I outlined supra.

There are no rules for creating a new Faction out of our mixed unit, it just says they are counted as being both. The FAQ for Detachments does not say "Can units from Two Detachments with the same Faction and only the same Faction embark in each other's Transport vehicles during deployment?" It is quite permissive instead and only requires some same Faction.

Moreover, my interpretation is the only one that does not lead to a rules conflict while yours does. Under your interpretation, the FAQ answers for #1 and #2 are at odds with each other when dealing with a mixed unit unless we imply exclusive language that doesn't exist into them. Under my interpretation, #1 prohibits things like a Culexus in a Space Marine Pod, but does not prohibit what is allowed by #2; Tigurius with a Grey Knight Strike Squad in a Land Raider.

Looking at all of that, there is no reason that the unit incidentally having a second faction should prevent it from embarking. The FAQ does not use exclusive language.

Audustum wrote:
6. Every model in the unit is both Factions.

This is not true. You haven't shown that, and it's obviously not the case. A model only ever has one Faction. Units may at times have multiple factions, but not models.
And without that, your argument falls apart.

Read my previous post.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Audustum wrote:
6. Every model in the unit is both Factions.

This is not true. You haven't shown that, and it's obviously not the case. A model only ever has one Faction. Units may at times have multiple factions, but not models.
And without that, your argument falls apart.

Read my previous post.

I did read your post and it doesn't disprove anything I wrote. Moreover, just saying "it doesn't" isn't really a rebuttal either.

I did show my proof on this one. It comes straight from the FAQ:

Q: If a unit consists of more than one Faction, what Faction
does the unit count as when targeted by a unit with a Preferred
Enemy or Hatred ability that affects one of the Factions in
that unit?
A: They count as having all the Factions of the models in
the unit.

In order for this statement to be true, every model has to have every Faction.

Example: Unit A has Hatred (Unit B). Unit B is in a unit with Unit C.

Hatred allows Unit A to re-roll To-Hit rolls in the first round of close combat.

For demonstrative purposes, Unit A charges Unit B+C. A model in Unit A challenges. A Unit C model accepts.

In this challenge, the A-Unit model still gets the benefit of Hatred: B even though it is sequestered in a challenge with a C-Unit model. This has to mean that Unit C now also counts as the same Faction as Unit B because Hatred states it only applies when "a model striking a hated foe in close combat re-rolls all failed To Hit...". The C-Unit model is not a hated foe unless it also counts as a B-Unit model.

Prior to the FAQ, you could argue the A-Unit model would not get the benefit of Hatred in this scenario, but the FAQ now overrides you as it specifically mentions Hatred and makes no exception even for challenges.

Furthermore, nothing in the Rules says a model cannot have more than 1 Faction. Once again, as I posted originally, the Allies section only provides that in "older publications" and "codex supplements" a unit has the Faction listed therein. It does not say models are restricted only to that Faction and it does not even apply to C:IA as C:IA is neither an older publication nor a supplement.

Even in the Detachments section under Factions it only says units belong to a Faction. It doesn't mention models at all and does not prohibit multi-faction units (which we all agree can exist).

Thus, I put out my proof a second time. You'll have to do better than just saying "no".

As an interesting aside, while the Rules have no limitations on Faction, they do explicitly allow that some units will have no Faction. It's under the Restrictions for Allied Detachments and Combined Arms Detachments. Not sure how you'd make that happen. This is notable because it contradicts the Detachment section I cited earlier, which indicates that you can't have a Factionless unit.

I think you're making a good case Audustum. The permissive wording of

"Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes."

is particularly interesting.

@audustum: Fighting in a challenge doesn't show what you think it does. The two models in the challenge are still members of their respective units. A GK Libby in a SM Tac squad fighting a challenge against a Farseer in a Fire Warrior squad. The Libby is part of the Tac's unit still, just as the Farseer is part of the FW unit. There are four factions swirling around in there, but there are two units. ICs are considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Now, the FAQ has made that a little less straightforward, but it's still a rule.

Let's take that GK Libby and Tac squad and give them a Pod.

Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.

What faction(s) is the unit? It's GK and SM. Is GK Battle Brothers with SM? Yes. Is the unit you're trying to cram in there a GK unit? Yes. Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other's Transport vehicles during deployment? No. Does it matter that there's another faction in there also? No. The FAQ explicitly denies Battle Brothers from entering each other's transports.

In a permissive ruleset, restrictions are more "special" than permissions. We have a permission for models to embark on transports. We have permission for units with the same faction that are from different detachments to embark on transports during deployment. We have a restriction on units that are Battle Brothers. You need a specific override explicitly addressing that restriction before you can ignore it. You don't have it.

Audustum wrote:
Example: Unit A has Hatred (Unit B). Unit B is in a unit with Unit C.

Your example falls apart here.

It should be restated as "Unit A from Faction P has Hatred (Faction Q). Unit B is from Faction Q, and is joined to Unit C which is from Faction R.

Continuing on with the example, Unit C we see on the board is now comprised of models from Faction Q and Faction R. Unit C has a Dedicated Transport, which is Faction R. When looking at the unit to allow embarking during deployment, the Transport sees "Faction Q", so is disallowed from being embarked on the Transport.

Alternatively, since this is all done during declarations more than actual physical movement, the IC Unit B, is not allowed to join Unit C during Deployment, because it is Faction Q.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but do not some of the units with Codex: Imperial Agents have their army list entries organized in datasheets? And do some of those datasheets have a Faction symbol other than Imperial Agents, such as Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle?

Hey all, the guy who audstum quotes in his post here;

Just a small point to make that comes to my head is that a faction is NEVER battle brothers with itself, so the second a GK squad gains the inquisition faction it ceases to be a battle brother, it now counts as a unit in the army of that faction.

How are people arguing a crystal clear rule from the faq? If you are battle brothers, you cannot embark on your bro's transport. Period.

It does not matter if GK are ALSO something else along with being GK. They are still GK, and they cannot embark on the "something else's" transport.

And there is no proof anywhere that the GK models actually become another faction. The unit is counted as such for the purposes of hatred and preferred enemy alone. This has nothing to do with models changing factions. You can't draw a questionable parallel from a faq question in order to invalidate directly another faq question, especially when the latter is as clear as the sky. You just can't dance around that one. If you are battle bros, stay out of your bro's ride.

There is literally a point in the FAQ that's says that units with multiple factions count as all of those factions.

Another point if I may, acolytes can purchase sister rhinos, flyboys' Valkyries and grey knights land raiders. What allows them to embark on those at all? Dedicated transports get the inquisition faction.

However by the rulings you've brought up, because the transport would still have the grey knight faction the acolytes would not be able to embark on it.

The key point in that situation, and the ONLY thing that would allow those acolytes to embark and the ONLY thing that changes IS the now matching faction type.

Please note I am not trying to be antagonistic at all, my capitalisation is only for emphasis of operative words. I'm just trying to get this sorted out because I can see both sides of the argument.

where does it state it gains the inquisition faction and right now under RAW, the acolytes can only start the game in a chimera, because the rest they can pick are battle brother transports

There are two problems though. One is that the faq states that units with multiple factions count as all of those factions indeed, but only for the purpose of two very specific USRs. We can't pick that and make it a blanket rule, especially when another faq rule strictly and directly forbids the tactic.

For the second point, here's an example. I have a green bar. And I'm an donkey-cave, so I put up a sign that says "Only green dudes allowed, red dudes can feck off". So now little Jimmy, a green dude wants to go with his friend Timmy, a red dude, in a bar. So Jimmy goes as a single unit with Timmy, and Timmy gets a green shirt because of this. They show up at my bar and require that they may enter, because their unit is both green and red. Alas, Timmy's green shirt can't hide the fact that he has a red skin (is Timmy Magnus himself perhaps?). So the magnificent donkey-cave in me denies him entry. My sign does not say "Green dudes can enter". It says that red dudes cannot. Timmy may be green for now, but he's also red.

Bottom line, I do not really think the world will end if the Imperial Agents get a couple of rhinos to rock around. It's not like they will become gladius or eldar suddenly, and making people more happy with new options will add diversity on the boards and I'm gonna be fighting less Gladiuses. But in here we're discussing rules, not fun.

Tox - I believe you're referring to this rule?

"Q: How do special rules like Hatred, Preferred Enemy and Monster Hunter work when targeting a mixed unit that contains models your special rule effects as well as models it doesn’t?
A: The rules mentioned are only used if all models in the target unit are of the appropriate type."

Where as I am referring to this one;

"Q: If a unit consists of more than one Faction, what Faction does the unit count as when targeted by special abilities that affect one of the Factions in that unit?
A: They count as having all the Factions of the models in the unit."

Which when read in its entirety actually doesn't help as they're not being targeted by a special rule.

My point stands however on why the heck are the other factions vehicles dedicated transports for acolytes if they can't embark on it, even when it gains their faction (which is spelled out on pg. 120 of the hardcover rule book Terry )

Honestly I think you win this debate. GW has made a terrible Dex at conflict with the FAQ, it may be this is the first example of 8th edition future proofing? But I won't hold me breath.

Qwerty2jam wrote:

My point stands however on why the heck are the other factions vehicles dedicated transports for acolytes if they can't embark on it, even when it gains their faction (which is spelled out on pg. 120 of the hardcover rule book Terry )

I didn't know that, that would mean that acolytes can start in their transports and still can when a monkey joins them, but as soon as a non-inquisition model joins the unit they can't start in it, but this is only speaking RAW. RAI its clear that they could use it and I would allow it, unless a faq tells us otherwise

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Hey all, the guy who audstum quotes in his post here;

Just a small point to make that comes to my head is that a faction is NEVER battle brothers with itself

If they don't, what those green skulls mean?

Forgive me but by that I mean that GKs in one CAD do not count as battle brothers to GKs on a second CAD. Likewise the librarius conclave is not battlebrothers to a centurion squad. (At least I'm fairly sure, I'll never claim to be 100% sure on anything).

Further, an allied detachement of the same faction as your core detachement is not allowed. Thus a faction can never be battle brothers with itself. (Again referring to specific factions like grey knights and not the larger armies of the imperium itself)

If this is right would not this complete inability to be battle brothers by being the same faction through a mixed faction unit allow them access to the vehicles of a faction they would no longer count as battle brothers with? (I realise the presence of a battle brother faction in their unit description is the point of contention here).

So.. you ask if a GK unit from detachment A can embark in a transport of another GK unit of detachment B? Of course they can, they have the same faction, they are both GK.

A mixed faction unit is not "being the same faction". A mixed unit of GK and Imperial Agents has BOTH the GK and Imperial Agents factions. Now GK may or may not be battle bros with other GK, but the Imperial Agents still are. It doesn't matter if they also count as GK, they keep counting also as IA, and are therefore battle bros with other GK so no transports. I think people are trying too hard on this one.

The chart, while it does have BB's in green, states at the top that it intended for use with two detachments of DIFFERENT factions. In situations where two detachments have the same faction, it is not used.


Spacemarines may specifically ally with other spacemarines. This exception is in the 7th SM codex and is intended so Iron hands can play with white scars. It was made like this so that Matt Ward can throw smurfs in with all of his other armies.


I'd like to throw a bit of mud in the waters at this point by reversing the order of the question: While it would not work to take papa smurf and put him in a pod with GK, you could take a GK land raider DT and put the unit in that.
1. The GK unit selects a land raider transport
2. The GK unit is joined by an IC from the SM faction. The IC per the BRB is treated "for all intents and purposes" are a part of the unit.
3. the GK unit embarks on a GK transport

This does not work the other way around as the FAQ is designed to prevent silliness like wolf players grabbing a dozen drop pods and filling them with blood angels assault terminators.


While you can't add an IC to a unit of red dudes and say they're all green, The brb turns a single red dude green for all intents and purposes. This conflicts with the Preferred enemy rule, previously pointed out, but that's GW for you. We'll never find a rule that doesn't conflict with some stipulation or another.
Ask your local TO.

 Charistoph wrote:
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but do not some of the units with Codex: Imperial Agents have their army list entries organized in datasheets? And do some of those datasheets have a Faction symbol other than Imperial Agents, such as Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle?

There is no 'Imperial Agents' faction. The factions in Codex Imperial Agents are Cult Mechanicus, Aeronautica Jmperialis, Astra Telepathica, Adepta Sororitas, Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Legion of the Damned, Officio Assassinorum and Inquisition.

Q: If a unit consists of more than one Faction, what Faction does the unit count as when targeted by a unit with a Preferred Enemy or Hatred ability that affects one of the Factions in that unit?

A: They count as having all the Factions of the models in the unit.

The problem with this is the fact that they count as all factions, including the Battle Brothers which can not start the game in the transport. As in any instance where a unit has two contradictory rules, one which allows the unit to perform an action and one which prohibits it then you break no rule. 'Can not' trumps 'may'.

I disagree. Most of the special rules in the game turn cannots into mays. In addition the preferred enemy linchpin is for that instance alone, and likely exists to simplify a single completely argument instead of placing a blanket ruling across all of 40k.

If all units in 40k counted as all the factions of the models within them every model would receive all faction bonuses, special rules, traits, targets ect. Any faction abilities would apply to every model regardless of it's own faction because they all are considered to have all of the unit's factions.

Now isn't that just a fantastic can of worms?

The brb turns a single red dude green for all intents and purposes.

That's not what it does. The brb makes the red dude a part of the unit for all intents and purposes. It does not make him into a green dude.