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Hello! Maybe I am dense but I cant seem to find where is says pink horrors get a free roll on malefic as well as their power from tzeentch. Did this disappear with the new faq?
Does kairos still know a malefic power per head?

They faq'd horrors right after the book came out to not get access to malefic.

BRB gives specific permission for ALL psykers to access Malefic (unless otherwise stated like GKs and Nids).
That means that if the unit in question is a psyker, and generates powers, it can access Malefic. period.
That should answer the question about Kairos.

Horrors are different because the WoM FAQ specifically denies Pink Horrors access to Malefic. There is a RAW argument here that Blues and Brimstones can still access it since NOTHING specifically states otherwise, but the RAI are so abundantly clear that I wouldn't try it.

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I see in the FAQ that FW still gets a malific roll per head which is cool.

So do the pinks have just a roll on the chart and can take flickering fire or so they get FF for free then a second power?

Pinks get a roll on Change and get FF for free due to A) being a Tz psyker, so Chaos Focus and B) generating all their powers from the same lore, so Psychic focus

As I thought. Thanks!

 Galef wrote:
BRB gives specific permission for ALL psykers to access Malefic (unless otherwise stated like GKs and Nids).
That means that if the unit in question is a psyker, and generates powers, it can access Malefic. period.
That should answer the question about Kairos.

Horrors are different because the WoM FAQ specifically denies Pink Horrors access to Malefic. There is a RAW argument here that Blues and Brimstones can still access it since NOTHING specifically states otherwise, but the RAI are so abundantly clear that I wouldn't try it.

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I've heard this before, but I haven't been able to find it. My buddy and I were playing Genestealer cult vs Necrons, and he ask if I was going to summon deamons, and I laughed cause I was like, no Tyranids are not allowed to... Then I remember these guys aren't tyranids faction. We talked about it, and decided until stated otherwise we should play that they can't summon daemons. Simply cause we were unsure. I am not sure of the official standing, but our group is currently going with no, until one of us can show otherwise.

While it is a good practice to go with "no" when unsure, this issue is pretty cut and dry. I am away from my BRB right now, so I won't be able to give quotes or page numbers, but if you check the psychic phase section of the BRB, it goes something like this:

-All Psykers have access to both Sanctic & Malefic Daemonology unless stated otherwise.<<<< it MUST be explicitly stated, omission of access is an omission of statement.
-GKs do not have access to Malefic
-Psykers with the Daemon rule do not have access to Santic
-Psykers with Faction: Tyranid do not have access to either

So GSC are given specific access to Malefic unless the following is written in their rules:
A) they count as Faction: Tyranids
B) their rule SPECIFICALLY say they cannot access it
C) they don't actually have Psykers that generate powers, i.e. all the Psykers have set powers rather than rolling for them

So ask yourself: Does A, B or C exist in the GSC rules. If the answer is No, then you absolutely, unequivocally, without doubt, undisputedly have access to Malefic and Sanctic Daemonology.
Go summon up some Daemons

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 Galef wrote:
Go summon up some Daemons

Then watch it fail as they cannot deploy.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Go summon up some Daemons

Then watch it fail as they cannot deploy.

not that again


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 Galef wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Go summon up some Daemons

Then watch it fail as they cannot deploy.

not that again

I rather should have said, "watch as they immediately Mishap as they cannot Deploy".

Things are sadly that simple as you stated when it comes to complex interactions like Come the Apocalypse Conjuring Daemons.

 Galef wrote:

C) they don't actually have Psykers that generate powers, i.e. all the Psykers have set powers rather than rolling for them

I thought there was something in one of the FAQs that said known powers don't count as generated powers because you need to roll to generate. Which brings a thought, Magnus knows all the powers from both the CSM and Deamons Tzeentch powers. He has no restriction for Malefic. So you could generate 5 powers from Malefic on top of the other powers he knows. That would be a whopping 20 powers

As far as GSC I don't think there is a restriction on summoning. If there is I believe it would be listed under the army info page (the one with warlord traits and what not).

I just don't I agree with THAT interpretation of "deploy" versus "deployment" but I need to check my BRB for the relevant quotes before I commit further to the discussion.

 Galef wrote:
I just don't I agree with THAT interpretation of "deploy" versus "deployment" but I need to check my BRB for the relevant quotes before I commit further to the discussion.

Let's just say, "deployment" is not stated in Come the Apocalypse, just "deploying for battle", which doesn't necessarily exclude during the middle of the game, sadly.

I think only the most anal or hyper-aggressive players would insist on it, though. It could be considered inherent permission to deploy a Conjured Come the Apocalypse unit within that 12". It depends on how friendly the game is.

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 Galef wrote:

C) they don't actually have Psykers that generate powers, i.e. all the Psykers have set powers rather than rolling for them

I thought there was something in one of the FAQs that said known powers don't count as generated powers because you need to roll to generate. Which brings a thought, Magnus knows all the powers from both the CSM and Deamons Tzeentch powers. He has no restriction for Malefic. So you could generate 5 powers from Malefic on top of the other powers he knows. That would be a whopping 20 powers

As far as GSC I don't think there is a restriction on summoning. If there is I believe it would be listed under the army info page (the one with warlord traits and what not).

That would be interesting, however in his profile where it refers to his psychic powers (where it would normally state what disciplines he has access to roll on) it tells you that he knows the gaze of Magnus plus the 2 disciplines. (Plus force), so no he can't summon through malefic.

This is ain interesting and important point. What exactly say the book about Magnus?= (i am still waiting to the book to arrive home haha)
He be able to use malefic could be freking cool, not just to summon

No Magnus cannot use Malefic. The BRB is clear that only psykers the GENERATE powers can choose different disciplines. Magnus, like Belakor, just "knows" his discipline. Neither of them roll for powers, they have set powers.

My point about GSC is that their Psykers may come with set powers and thus not be able to "generate" them. I don't know, I don't have their rules.
If they do have Psykers that can "roll random powers", are NOT considered Faction: Tyranid, nor do they have a specific rule stating they cannot use Malefic, then they 100% can use Malefic.
You'll have to discuss with your group if they can "deploy" however as Come the Apoc Allies cannot deploy within 12" of each other.

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Although this is not binding, my local GW store runner told us no, genestealer cult is not allowed to summon deamons. He said althought the errata/ adhoc blanket grant is true, that it was only for factions without updated codexs up to that point. Meaning the GSC codex has listed all the powers they are allowed to take/have and since its a current codex after the pysker revamp, its not privy to it for rules as intended.

Lorewise, it makes sense. But I am sad, now I can only summon genestealers lol.

 Galef wrote:
BRB gives specific permission for ALL psykers to access Malefic (unless otherwise stated like GKs and Nids).
That means that if the unit in question is a psyker, and generates powers, it can access Malefic. period.
That should answer the question about Kairos.

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Lol you know as well that that part was only written there to give all non updated 6th edition codexes acces to the discipline.
7th edition codexes overwrite that rule since codex overrides BRB. This is clearly RAI. Just look at the imperial agents codex for example they clearly make difference between models that have access to malific and or sanctic by writing it in their profile in the same way as any other sort of powers. This isn't done by accident
Raw is questionable, it might be best not to go blatantly against rai when using psychic powers.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Lol you know as well that that part was only written there to give all non updated 6th edition codexes acces to the discipline.
7th edition codexes overwrite that rule since codex overrides BRB. This is clearly RAI. Just look at the imperial agents codex for example they clearly make difference between models that have access to malific and or sanctic by writing it in their profile in the same way as any other sort of powers. This isn't done by accident
Raw is questionable, it might be best not to go blatantly against rai when using psychic powers.

No, actually, it isn't "clearly" RAI. While I agree this is were GW "wants" to go, but it isn't "clearly" apparent.

Put yourself in the shoes of a new player who only knows 7th ed. To you, all the rules are current.
Now, if a more experienced player wants to explain older editions, they would have a problem doing so since:
EDITION NUMBERS ARE NOT PRINTED IN ANY GW PUBLICATION.

The concept of "editions" is something that we, the veteran players, have been keeping track of, but GW has not.
So from this standpoint, we MUST ignore what has come before and treat all current rules as they are written.
Yes, you and I know that giving access to all Psykers was a way to update the codices until they could get current updates, but to a new player who only has the CURRENT rules to go by, the BRB plainly states that ALL Psykers have access to Daemonology unless otherwise stated.

As for newer publication stating whether a Psyker has Malefic OR Santic, that is a clearly RAI point, I grant. However it fails to address the RAW issue that those Psykers still has access to the other Daemonology.
For Example: Farseers have Sanctic listed as a discipline they have access to. RAI we are to assume they do NOT have Malefic, however is does not STATE that they do not.
The BRB gives the Farseer access, and the Codex only overrides this by SPECIFICALLY denying access. The absence of Malefic on the Farseer datasheet is not an inherent denial.

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Meh I'll take it Rai is Rai regardless is it just s obvious from a newbie bystander or not. Also you and me and allmost all players are no obvious newbies. And psy powers are a mess in raw so best to use rai.

I do after that it is an ugly form of rule writing, they should just have errata'ed that sentence gone since it is no longer needed. But meh we get their intentions and 8th is around the corner so much why care.