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I know that theres a whole lore thing about how the Emperor might live on in some way that the Thorian Inquisitors adhere to. One being that he has descendants that can act as a host and the other being that particularly faithful or strong willed individuals can do so. I know theres also the idea that he might just be a perpetual and get back up. Not a fan of that personally as it throws out too many plotholes.

But if the storyline does ultimately lead to the Emperor dying at the hands of Abaddon, it does make this a much more pressing issue and I think its a lot more likely that GW is going to do something plot wise with this.

So it raises the question of, is there any existing character in the game who might "fit the bill" for being either a Daughter of the Emperor or an avatar of his will? Celestine is pretty much the only viable candidate since all other Livings Saints (assuming they don't make generic living saint an option) are only in the books and unlike in Warhammer Fantasy where they trolled us "oh no it was Karl Franz all along". There isn't an immediately obvious alternative. I mean, okay, by this reasoning I would have thought his spirit would pass to one of the Primarchs since they are the closest match; but then again that throws up a load of plot holes.

It is worth pointing out that Celestine's new design is a lot more reminiscent of the Emperors armor with all the gold and the wings; plus the art with her glowing with golden energy billowing out of her. So from a look point of view they're being pretty explicit.

Plus, its interesting that they are choosing to introduce her relatively early into the storyline and in what appears to be a pretty major way. Does that suggest its where the story is going?


Also BTW, I think they might troll us. I think they will argue that the Emperor is a bit like the Trinity in Christianity. So the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the same thing but distinct. So, the physical man the Emperor sitting on the throne is not the same as his god like spirit and not the same as his son/daughter (I wouldn't say no to Emperor Gulliman ). So Abaddon can kill the man, but he can't kill the God; nor can he prevent the child assuming that "earthly" mantle. This would explain how characters like Euraphti Keeler could call on the Emperors power, this was due to the Emperors God like spirit and not the physical shell of the Father.

Lol you do know how these legendary "lineages" have come into existence in historic days don't you ?

If Celestine was a descendant of the Emperor, wouldn't she have been a psychic? It's not like the IoM doesn't have reliable ways to test for such.

This really leads to a discussion about SoB Acts of Faith and what's going on under the hood with them.

Basically, it's psychic power, though SoB aren't exactly psychics, not in the traditional sense. They have, however, undergone lifelong training to focus their minds on one thing - the Emperor. And so they can draw on his power (rather than drawing energy directly from the warp). Celestine and the other living saints are the highest examples of this sort of ability - a solid, reliable, direct connection to the power of the Emperor, without all the nasty dangers you normally associate with using psychic power.

It's also possible that SoB generate a collective psychic field (like Grey Knights, but requiring a much larger group) that they can make use of without dipping into the Warp for extra energy. That might explain why Celestine really only shows up at large battles where lots of SoB are involved. It's entirely possible that Celestine doesn't actually exist, but is generated on the spot by SoB collective energies and the mental template they have for her and other living saints. So the original Celestine died, and she doesn't really come back as much as she gets re-created from pure psychic energy again and again - a psychic projection, if you like.

She's definitely not a daemon, however, given she's not subject to any of the things that target daemons specifically. Even the Eldar Avatar is treated as a daemon.

John Prins wrote:
If Celestine was a descendant of the Emperor, wouldn't she have been a psychic? It's not like the IoM doesn't have reliable ways to test for such.

This really leads to a discussion about SoB Acts of Faith and what's going on under the hood with them.

Basically, it's psychic power, though SoB aren't exactly psychics, not in the traditional sense. They have, however, undergone lifelong training to focus their minds on one thing - the Emperor. And so they can draw on his power (rather than drawing energy directly from the warp). Celestine and the other living saints are the highest examples of this sort of ability - a solid, reliable, direct connection to the power of the Emperor, without all the nasty dangers you normally associate with using psychic power.

It's also possible that SoB generate a collective psychic field (like Grey Knights, but requiring a much larger group) that they can make use of without dipping into the Warp for extra energy. That might explain why Celestine really only shows up at large battles where lots of SoB are involved. It's entirely possible that Celestine doesn't actually exist, but is generated on the spot by SoB collective energies and the mental template they have for her and other living saints. So the original Celestine died, and she doesn't really come back as much as she gets re-created from pure psychic energy again and again - a psychic projection, if you like.

She's definitely not a daemon, however, given she's not subject to any of the things that target daemons specifically. Even the Eldar Avatar is treated as a daemon.

In theory she should be a powerful psyker if she was his descendant, However genetics can be a funny thing and recessive genes can do all sorts of fun things (see the Alymer Twin sisters IRL). However, her not having Psychic powers in theory would act a plus, if she was meant to house the conscienceness of the Emperor then having powers of her own might interfere with any sort of transference.

She just really really believed in the emperor.

John Prins wrote:
If Celestine was a descendant of the Emperor, wouldn't she have been a psychic? It's not like the IoM doesn't have reliable ways to test for such.

This really leads to a discussion about SoB Acts of Faith and what's going on under the hood with them.

Basically, it's psychic power, though SoB aren't exactly psychics, not in the traditional sense. They have, however, undergone lifelong training to focus their minds on one thing - the Emperor. And so they can draw on his power (rather than drawing energy directly from the warp). Celestine and the other living saints are the highest examples of this sort of ability - a solid, reliable, direct connection to the power of the Emperor, without all the nasty dangers you normally associate with using psychic power.

It's also possible that SoB generate a collective psychic field (like Grey Knights, but requiring a much larger group) that they can make use of without dipping into the Warp for extra energy. That might explain why Celestine really only shows up at large battles where lots of SoB are involved. It's entirely possible that Celestine doesn't actually exist, but is generated on the spot by SoB collective energies and the mental template they have for her and other living saints. So the original Celestine died, and she doesn't really come back as much as she gets re-created from pure psychic energy again and again - a psychic projection, if you like.

She's definitely not a daemon, however, given she's not subject to any of the things that target daemons specifically. Even the Eldar Avatar is treated as a daemon.

I agree, its psychic powers, but id liken it to the background psychic field the orks have or that every nid is a psyker on some level to receive the hive mind, people need to remember that all supernatural powers in 40k are warp based in origin, so acts of faith, powers of fenris, nid psychic powers etc. all come from the warp, no matter what the people believe themselves.

Celestine could also "just" be another instance of the warp god emperor giving its power to its followers in their time of need.

John Prins wrote:
She's definitely not a daemon,

Are you sure ?


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I would suggest that we burn her on the stake for her sins against the laws of nature, but we all know that she will just come back to life like the daemon she is.

Celestine is a perpetual. She was stuck down as a Repentia and not only did not die, but return to full health without scaring. She later found herself at the tomb of a Saint, dawned the Saint's armor and weapons, and return to battle to turn the tide to victory. At some point (retcon) she became a Living Saint, and has returned from being mortally wounded on a number of occasions only to vanish after the battle is over only to reappear on other worlds to lend aid to Imperial forces in need.

Is she a descendent of the Emperor? Statistically speaking, every living human in 40k already is.

SJ

It's called faith...which oddly enough only makes the case FOR the Emperor being a god.

Well Chaos runs on belief, so making the big E a god only takes belief. Seeing as there has been a government sponsored cult running around for several thousand years at this point in the setting him becoming a god wouldn't be a shock. Frankly I'd be more surprised if he hadn't reached a point of apotheosis and became a true "deity" (in terms of the setting).

It's really just a matter of time if Sisters stay the crazy religious nutters we all know and love or evolve into holy possessed warriors and take the Sigmarine concept right around back into 40k.

Given how old the Emperor is, it's entirely possible that a large portion of humanity has inherited at least some of their genes from him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
It's called faith...which oddly enough only makes the case FOR the Emperor being a god.

The Emperor never pretended to be a deity and he insisted he was not a god, just a powerful human.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

John Prins wrote:
If Celestine was a descendant of the Emperor, wouldn't she have been a psychic? It's not like the IoM doesn't have reliable ways to test for such.

This really leads to a discussion about SoB Acts of Faith and what's going on under the hood with them.

Basically, it's psychic power, though SoB aren't exactly psychics, not in the traditional sense. They have, however, undergone lifelong training to focus their minds on one thing - the Emperor. And so they can draw on his power (rather than drawing energy directly from the warp). Celestine and the other living saints are the highest examples of this sort of ability - a solid, reliable, direct connection to the power of the Emperor, without all the nasty dangers you normally associate with using psychic power.

It's also possible that SoB generate a collective psychic field (like Grey Knights, but requiring a much larger group) that they can make use of without dipping into the Warp for extra energy. That might explain why Celestine really only shows up at large battles where lots of SoB are involved. It's entirely possible that Celestine doesn't actually exist, but is generated on the spot by SoB collective energies and the mental template they have for her and other living saints. So the original Celestine died, and she doesn't really come back as much as she gets re-created from pure psychic energy again and again - a psychic projection, if you like.

She's definitely not a daemon, however, given she's not subject to any of the things that target daemons specifically. Even the Eldar Avatar is treated as a daemon.

There's a fan theory that Acts of Faith aren't psychic powers precisely because there is nothing magical about them, only a placebo effect where the Sisters of Battle become more effective because they believe they are being granted divine assistance.

Ever heard of a mother lifting a two-ton car off of her child? That actually happens, though the mother usually destroys her body in the process and requires massive amounts of medical attention.

The human body can do some pretty amazing things when it has to. We just usually don't push ourselves that hard because the damaging effects aren't typically worth it.


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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Well Chaos runs on belief, so making the big E a god only takes belief. Seeing as there has been a government sponsored cult running around for several thousand years at this point in the setting him becoming a god wouldn't be a shock. Frankly I'd be more surprised if he hadn't reached a point of apotheosis and became a true "deity" (in terms of the setting).

It's really just a matter of time if Sisters stay the crazy religious nutters we all know and love or evolve into holy possessed warriors and take the Sigmarine concept right around back into 40k.

No.

Literally every citizen of the Imperium worships the Emperor as a deity. That is quadrillions of people worshipping him.

If their faith gave him power, he should easily be capable of defeating the Chaos gods, as he would have far, far more support.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

But if the storyline does ultimately lead to the Emperor dying at the hands of Abaddon, it does make this a much more pressing issue and I think its a lot more likely that GW is going to do something plot wise with this.

Don't worry. It won't.

That being said - things like Saints and such are noticeably skirting the line between "Is it proof or isn't it?" intentionally. GW, by leaving that question open, is giving the fans exactly what they want...

The point is, there is no definitive answer.

 cvtuttle wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

But if the storyline does ultimately lead to the Emperor dying at the hands of Abaddon, it does make this a much more pressing issue and I think its a lot more likely that GW is going to do something plot wise with this.

Don't worry. It won't.

Yeah, I mean, that would require Abaddon to successfully attack Terra and get into the Imperial Palace, past the Custodes. Even Horus, during the Horus Heresy, didn't manage to do that.

I think she may be a descendent of a friend of mine.
Ok, so my friend in question has a habit of appearing suddenly; as though she had been summoned. AND she has a shirt which has 'Angel' written on the front AND she's elusive as to who her 'Boss' is

 Skymate wrote:
I think she may be a descendent of a friend of mine.
Ok, so my friend in question has a habit of appearing suddenly; as though she had been summoned. AND she has a shirt which has 'Angel' written on the front AND she's elusive as to who her 'Boss' is

Well, she was born literally 33,000 years or more in the future.

Odds are good she's your descendant too, unless you choose not to have kids.


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Oh, just for fun, experiment with your calculator to find out how many grandparents you'd have 33,000 years ago. That's about 1650 generations. So just take 2, push the exponent button and find out what the 1650th power of 2 is.

Did you do it yet? Good. Let me tell you why it returned an error. Your calculator broke because it is simply incapable of calculating a number THAT large. Wolfram Alpha can, but you're not gonna copy/paste it here because it's going to be so god damned long that Wolfram Alpha will not display the entire thing either, but it will tell you how many digits it has.

Yeah, so that means that 33,000 years ago, you'd have more theoretical grandparents than members of our species have EVER existed at ALL, throughout TIME, because that number is easy for your computer's calculator to calculate, since it's just 100 billion.

How is that possible? Well, guess what. The concepts of incest and inbreeding don't apply when we're distantly related enough, so what the HELL did you think it meant that evolutionary biologists said "All species on Earth are descended from a common ancestor," if not the fact that all life forms on Earth are our family members to some degree. Yes, even the plants and fungus too.

She'd never be the descendent of my friend and I as we are not that 'close'
So far I'm yet to discover where my friend keeps her wings [they must detach or fold up somehow]

On the subject of the years until M41, I remember my little brother wanted to be a Blood angel when he was about ten or so. He thought 'new millenniums' were something we had every few years

 Skymate wrote:
She'd never be the descendent of my friend and I as we are not that 'close'
So far I'm yet to discover where my friend keeps her wings [they must detach or fold up somehow]

On the subject of the years until M41, I remember my little brother wanted to be a Blood angel when he was about ten or so. He thought 'new millenniums' were something we had every few years

No, I meant you both separately. I wasn't assuming you had a relationship at all.

Like, literally, it's very probable that if you existed in WH40k lore in the present day, you'd probably be Celestine's great-(...)-grandparent, regardless of who you ended up having kids with.

I still think the possibility of her being the emperors daughter is difficult. Is the Emperor even human? Some of the stuff I've read suggests that he's a super....man so is it even possible for him to have children? It's almost like those comic nerd debates with who superman could have a child with
Still, if he did, how would the linage last for ten thousand years? Generally, royal families have to start inbreeding at one point as they cant find spouses 'noble' enough for their children and that's usually after a few decades.

 Skymate wrote:
I still think the possibility of her being the emperors daughter is difficult. Is the Emperor even human? Some of the stuff I've read suggests that he's a super....man so is it even possible for him to have children? It's almost like those comic nerd debates with who superman could have a child with
Still, if he did, how would the linage last for ten thousand years? Generally, royal families have to start inbreeding at one point as they cant find spouses 'noble' enough for their children and that's usually after a few decades.

We know the Emperor has children. They're the Sensei.

A few years ago it might have been argued GW was trying to retcon them out, but with the emergence of things like perpetuals in modern lore it's pretty clear that they still exist and the Emperor has children.

 The Phazer wrote:

 Skymate wrote:
I still think the possibility of her being the emperors daughter is difficult. Is the Emperor even human? Some of the stuff I've read suggests that he's a super....man so is it even possible for him to have children? It's almost like those comic nerd debates with who superman could have a child with
Still, if he did, how would the linage last for ten thousand years? Generally, royal families have to start inbreeding at one point as they cant find spouses 'noble' enough for their children and that's usually after a few decades.

We know the Emperor has children. They're the Sensei.

A few years ago it might have been argued GW was trying to retcon them out, but with the emergence of things like perpetuals in modern lore it's pretty clear that they still exist and the Emperor has children.

I'm under the impression that the GK purifiers are Sensei. Celestine certainly fits the bill of a perpetual. Whenever she's an actual descendant of the Emperor is possible but unlikely and unclear. We know for a fact that she survived a direct hit by an atomic bomb which reduced the landscape to "atoms" (3.5ed which Hunter codex, p47, bottom of the page) since she's clearly been active after said event. Pretty sure she's a perpetual. No record of her life before joining the Sisters repentina exsists however so she might as well be an ancient perpetuals in disguise or a former Inquisitior. We don't know anything of her pre SoB life.

We know few things about Celestine's life pre-Repentia. She had to have been recruited from the Schola Progenium or directly from the Inquisition. At some point after completing her Sororitas training she became a Repentia. While this seems broad in scope, when combined with her seeming perpetual nature, chances are she was recruited directly from the Inquisition, perhaps even the Ordo Chronos. Ordo Chronos, while being extremely secretive even for the Inquisition, are known to cultivate specific people in time to create temporal fragments, allowing the same individual to exist in multiple places and times despite having died each time. Combine this with her perpetual nature as well as her apparent near divine charisma, Celestine becomes an icon to the Faith, a beacon of the Emperor's will. This also explains how some Living Saints, but not all, can reapear in new locates to turn the tide of history only to disappear shortly after victor.

Just a thought, using canonical sources to work this specific logical chain.

SJ

If the Emperor was 30,000 years old at the start of th HH, he could have started making a supreme race of being through "selective 1 night stands" through the ages.

Or something.

PLOT TWIST!!!

She is actually the emperors lover, she is a perpetual which is why she is known as a saint and she is actually a blank, but unlike other blanks even the emperor can not use powers against her, which drew him to her and they became secret lovers and she is the hidden empress of mankind and will bring the big E back.

Bum DUM DUUUMMMMMMM!!!!!!