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Holà,

Just need some advice on this list. I wanted to try the new Serrated ROW with the models I own using its high mobility with pods and the low restriction on tanks. The first pod to land will be either the seekers or the vets to use the nuncio vox to avoid scatter for the other pods and use it for the quad mortar. Zardu goes with the slaves in the dreadclaw to drop T1 with the first wave with the GV unit. The centu can go either with the support guys or with the seekers to get some psy shriek and prey for invis. The rest of the line stay back shooting from afar. The battle tank can try to aim the enemy flyers and the venator is here to negate enemy super heavies. Zardu will pick the summoning and cursed earth.

Will be glad to get some feedbacks on this


+ HQ (375pts) +

········Legion Centurion (100pts) [Artificer Armour, Burning Lore, Refractor Field]

········Zardu Layak (275pts) [Anakatis Kul Blade-slaves, Warlord]

+ Elites (525pts) +

········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (140pts) [2x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell]

········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (140pts) [2x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell]

········Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (245pts) [Legion Drop Pod, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Veteran Tactics: Marksmen]
············Additional Wargear [2x Meltagun, Nuncio-vox]
············Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Chainsword/Combat Blade]

+ Troops (795pts) +

········Gal Vorbak Dark Brethren (260pts) [4x Dark Brethren, Legion Drop Pod]
············Dark Martyr [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

········Legion Tactical Support Squad (310pts) [7x Legion Space Marines, Plasma Guns, Legion Drop Pod]
············Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour]

········The Ashen Circle (225pts) [Dark Channelling, 4x Incendiary]
············Iconoclast [Artificer Armour, Phosphex Bombs, Power Axe]

+ Fast Attack (405pts) +

········Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (115pts)

········Legion Seeker Squad (290pts) [Legion Drop Pod, 8x Legion Seeker Space Marines, Nuncio-Vox]
············Legion Strike Leader [Artificer Armour]

+ Heavy Support (405pts) +

········Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (210pts) [Dozer Blade, Lascannons]

········Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer (195pts) [Dozer Blade] (combi to negate the weapon destroy result)

+ Legion +

········Legiones Astartes [ XVII: Word Bearers, Traitor]

········Rite of War [Last of the Serrated Sun]

I think that since your artillery units also include infantry they need drop pods. Drop pods can transport them.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
I think that since your artillery units also include infantry they need drop pods. Drop pods can transport them.

Yea, they do have infantry and would need a pod. Would need to be an Anvillus, since they don't get standard Legion pods as a default option. Not sure its worth it, honestly.

False, Rapiers' unit type is "Artillery", they are not an infantry unit even though they contain infantry models within them. The restriction is only to "Infantry units".

The reason I disagree is if you kill the gun there are still infantry models remaining. Unlike a jump pack unit or a bike unit for example where the two are inseparable. This is in addition to the guns being transportable in drop pods like other infantry models. I do want want you to be right though very much. I just don't see them being exclusive from infantry.

HandofMars wrote:
False, Rapiers' unit type is "Artillery", they are not an infantry unit even though they contain infantry models within them. The restriction is only to "Infantry units".

It is both. Would be good to ask FW for a clarification.

Here you go again, running off to Forgeworld to clarify clearly written rules.

Look at the unit type in their datasheet. They are artillery, period.
Artillery units are NOT infantry units. If there is a rule that impacts infantry MODELS, then those models would be affected, but otherwise, an artillery unit is an artillery unit.

Maybe before running off to FW for everything, you should just sit back, take a deep breath, and RTFM.

Now what is relevant for the list, is that Ashen Circle is an infantry unit, and cannot be put in a pod or transport, or arrive by teleportation. Ashen Circle and jump infantry in general is not allowed by the restrictions of the Rite of War.

HandofMars wrote:
Here you go again, running off to Forgeworld to clarify clearly written rules.

Look at the unit type in their datasheet. They are artillery, period.
Artillery units are NOT infantry units. If there is a rule that impacts infantry MODELS, then those models would be affected, but otherwise, an artillery unit is an artillery unit.

Maybe before running off to FW for everything, you should just sit back, take a deep breath, and RTFM.

Now what is relevant for the list, is that Ashen Circle is an infantry unit, and cannot be put in a pod or transport, or arrive by teleportation. Ashen Circle and jump infantry in general is not allowed by the restrictions of the Rite of War.

Hey bud, how about not being a jerk? Making FW aware of rule inconsistencies helps them keep the game nice and clean. Learn to have an adult discussion with the rest of us, please.

I posted a snip from my ebook showing why there might be confusion. The crew is infantry, so I would think they most likely need to deploy as per the RoW's requirement.

EDIT: Also, Jump Infantry all have "Deep Strike" per the 40k rulebook. So, they are viable.

Yep, I was already aware of the rapier issue but my mates don't really mind about it unless FW states some specific rules about it.

Same for the Ashen Circle and I don't really get why they put a specification on "teleporting" infantry. The only guys that can do it with the WB are the termies but they are not able to do it without the specific ROW (orbital assault for instance)... Kind of silly. And considering how weak they are ingame they won't be a game changer ah ah

But concerning the reste of the list do you think it looks OK ?

 Khar_Lupercal wrote:
Yep, I was already aware of the rapier issue but my mates don't really mind about it unless FW states some specific rules about it.

Same for the Ashen Circle and I don't really get why they put a specification on "teleporting" infantry. The only guys that can do it with the WB are the termies but they are not able to do it without the specific ROW (orbital assault for instance)... Kind of silly. And considering how weak they are ingame they won't be a game changer ah ah

But concerning the reste of the list do you think it looks OK ?

Teleporting just means Deep Striking, though, really. In the 40k rulebook, it says as much in the Deep Strike rule description and I don't see anywhere that it mentions teleportation as a specifically limiting rule.

As for the list... not sure why you are taking the Blade-Slaves other than rule-of-cool. Why not tuck Zardu with an infantry unit that can drop in and start summoning?

They should have written "all deep striking infantry" then but FW wording is alwyas so... mysterious

I Find blade slaves to be quite good on the charge: they just eat MC units with their 10A dealing 2 wounds and they can be joined by the centurion if need be and roll on biomancy to pack a decent mele unit.

 Khar_Lupercal wrote:
They should have written "all deep striking infantry" then but FW wording is alwyas so... mysterious

I Find blade slaves to be quite good on the charge: they just eat MC units with their 10A dealing 2 wounds and they can be joined by the centurion if need be and roll on biomancy to pack a decent mele unit.

Sounds like a plan. Just costs so much for the Dreadclaw to drop them off, that is all. But yea, they are pretty rough when they get there. Cursed Earth is a solid choice too.

Jump infantry is NOT eligible. You must deep strike IN A POD, or be teleported (which in this Rite nothing can), you cannot qualify for the rate by deep striking innately. Most people won't care since Ashen Circle sucks, but it'd be a house rule.

Artillery units are defined by the main rulebook, "Artillery units consist of a number of crew models and the gun models themselves. These units can include several different types of models." Even if they have an infantry crew, they are not an infantry unit, they are an artillery unit. The end.

HandofMars wrote:
Jump infantry is NOT eligible. You must deep strike IN A POD, or be teleported (which in this Rite nothing can), you cannot qualify for the rate by deep striking innately. Most people won't care since Ashen Circle sucks, but it'd be a house rule.

Artillery units are defined by the main rulebook, "Artillery units consist of a number of crew models and the gun models themselves. These units can include several different types of models." Even if they have an infantry crew, they are not an infantry unit, they are an artillery unit. The end.

Wow, you just can't be less than a jerk, can you?

Find me the rules for "Teleportation" in the rulebook. Go ahead, I'll wait. Hint: Look for "Deep Strike".

And Artillery includes several different types of models - it lists Infantry. That was, as I said, where confusion could come in. It should just say "Artillery" and be done with it.

Is it being a jerk to just point out what the damn rules say? Or are you being the jerk for apparently never cracking open a rulebook and yet thinking you know everything?

In 30K, the only units that can teleport are those with a teleportation transponder. It's a distinct and specific thing in the rules for Age of Darkness. The Rite is unambiguous, "by teleportation if such an option is available", and such an option is NOT available to Jump infantry. Also, since earlier you tried to use fluff to support your argument, are you now trying to argue that in fluff jump infantry teleports?


There are several types of units in an artillery unit because there are effects that impact certain types of models. For example Raven Guard Infantry get infiltrate, and that affects the crew. They don't forget how to do stuff just because they are on heavy gun duty.

The rulebook defines Artillery units as just that, artillery units which may contain different types of models. It is a far cry from the Jump section, which specifically says these models follow the rules for Jump units AND their subtype unit (so jump infantry are both Jump and Infantry, for example).

So to summarize: artillery units are fine in this rite, they are under no requirements to be transported or deep struck.

Jump units are not, because they cannot go into any fliers or drop pods, and do not have the option to teleport (but again, except in maybe a tournament, 99% of opponents won't care if you want to bring ashen circle, but it's something to keep in mind).

HandofMars wrote:
Is it being a jerk to just point out what the damn rules say? Or are you being the jerk for apparently never cracking open a rulebook and yet thinking you know everything?

In 30K, the only units that can teleport are those with a teleportation transponder. It's a distinct and specific thing in the rules for Age of Darkness. The Rite is unambiguous, "by teleportation if such an option is available", and such an option is NOT available to Jump infantry. Also, since earlier you tried to use fluff to support your argument, are you now trying to argue that in fluff jump infantry teleports?


There are several types of units in an artillery unit because there are effects that impact certain types of models. For example Raven Guard Infantry get infiltrate, and that affects the crew. They don't forget how to do stuff just because they are on heavy gun duty.

The rulebook defines Artillery units as just that, artillery units which may contain different types of models. It is a far cry from the Jump section, which specifically says these models follow the rules for Jump units AND their subtype unit (so jump infantry are both Jump and Infantry, for example).

So to summarize: artillery units are fine in this rite, they are under no requirements to be transported or deep struck.

Jump units are not, because they cannot go into any fliers or drop pods, and do not have the option to teleport (but again, except in maybe a tournament, 99% of opponents won't care if you want to bring ashen circle, but it's something to keep in mind).

You don't get it, do you? It is tone. You might not realize it, but when you convey your thoughts as you do, it is easy to interpret that as being a jerk.

And you are wrong on teleportation. Hilariously, the transponder gives them Deep Strike (referencing the latest Red Book Imperial Fist wargear option). Teleportation is Deep Strike. The Rite doesn't clearly state it, which is frustrating, but the rules in the 40k rulebook state "teleportation" as a means of Deep Striking and nothing in the AoD states a unique teleportation rule. So Jump Infantry absolutely can be included, because they can Deep Strike.

I conceded the artillery issue - though good to see you refuse to actually read and comprehend what I said. All I did was point out where confusion could be had, but no no, please keep beating the dead horse.

FW is full of inconsistencies. There are a bunch of Rites that prevent Slow & Purposeful when that rule doesn't exist anymore for any unit in the book. They copy paste old rules over new rules, etc.

Since again you seem to be projecting your own inability to understand the written language, I said no one will probably care if you want to use Ashen Circle, but explicitly as written in the rules it's at the very least vague. Other rules forums like B&C and Heresy 30K, which both have larger AoD communities, the decision was that the Rite excludes jump infantry. The OP should be ready to have this discussion.

HandofMars wrote:
FW is full of inconsistencies. There are a bunch of Rites that prevent Slow & Purposeful when that rule doesn't exist anymore for any unit in the book. They copy paste old rules over new rules, etc.

Since again you seem to be projecting your own inability to understand the written language, I said no one will probably care if you want to use Ashen Circle, but explicitly as written in the rules it's at the very least vague. Other rules forums like B&C and Heresy 30K, which both have larger AoD communities, the decision was that the Rite excludes jump infantry. The OP should be ready to have this discussion.

Oh no, I comprehend very well. The rule is vague, but the intent isn't particularly. Not when you factor in the 40k rulebook and have basic reading comprehension. Right in the description of the Deep Strike USR it talks about teleporation. Pretty straight-forward.

And I don't see a single mention of this rule topic on the Heresy 30k forums and B&C, but admit I did a cursory search for "Serrated Sun" and "Ashen Circle". So not sure where you get this consensus from. On top of that, I have been witness to just last week at least a few list on both of those forums who were unaware of the auto-lose VC. Soooooo... yea.

By the way, you are wrong about teleportation. The only mention of it in the 7th edition rulebook is the italicized fluff blurb introducing the Deep Strike rule:

Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.

Thus while the mechanics of deep strike are the same no matter what, the delivery method is determined by the unit's equipment. So flying things fly, tunneling things tunnel, and teleporting things teleport.

If a Rite of War comes out that gives some bonus to models who appear via tunneling, would you then start arguing that assault marines also qualify? I guess so would fire raptors and land speeders?

It is frankly ridiculous, especially for someone who rails against the limit on null-deploy lists as a fluff-abomination.

HandofMars wrote:
By the way, you are wrong about teleportation. The only mention of it in the 7th edition rulebook is the italicized fluff blurb introducing the Deep Strike rule:

Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.

Thus while the mechanics of deep strike are the same no matter what, the delivery method is determined by the unit's equipment. So flying things fly, tunneling things tunnel, and teleporting things teleport.

If a Rite of War comes out that gives some bonus to models who appear via tunneling, would you then start arguing that assault marines also qualify? I guess so would fire raptors and land speeders?

It is frankly ridiculous, especially for someone who rails against the limit on null-deploy lists as a fluff-abomination.

Wait... what? I am all for Null Deployment. Hence me not being happy with the auot-lose. Again, I just flat out question your reading comprehension skills at this point.

As for me being "wrong". How am I wrong? Did you find me the teleportation rules? No?! Because there aren't any. That was my point. Teleporting being Deep Strike is that the closest we get to any language concerning teleport as a rule. Otherwise, it is a rule without any rules, which is clearly not what FW had in mind. It takes just a tiny ounce of common sense to get what FW meant in this somewhat vague rule. Since there are no rules governing teleportation, it would likely be Deep Strike. We can argue tunneling when we get the rules for an army that does so, if that is ever a thing. Since it isn't, it certainly won't detract from this specific instance.

It's a nice list, I don't have the rules for Serrated Sun on hand but if it says they all have to be in drop pods then I'm afraid you can't take the rapiers without them, they are listed under the legion drop pod transport capacity for this specific reason.

@Rolsheen - please stop and go read the other thread. Artillery is artillery, let's not rehash simple stuff that could be resolved by reading the rulebook. Just stop.

@pee - Teleporting is a form of deep strike, and assault marines do not teleport any more than they tunnel or magically cut through the veil or whatever else. None of these are defined game terms, they are fluff descriptions. The Rite specifically calls out teleporting. You are breaking the narrative and being gamey with your interpretations that fire raptors teleport and jetbikes tunnel under the ground. You are promoting cheating and "that guy" attitude.

Also note you're the only one to have resorted to repeated abrasive hyperbole and name calling through-out this thread, which further leads me to believe you are unhinged and uncomprehending. You are not worth discussing anything with at all, as you now have established yourself as the seedy underbelly of the GW playerbase. You're done. Good day.

HandofMars wrote:
@Rolsheen - please stop and go read the other thread. Artillery is artillery, let's not rehash simple stuff that could be resolved by reading the rulebook. Just stop.

@pee - Teleporting is a form of deep strike, and assault marines do not teleport any more than they tunnel or magically cut through the veil or whatever else. None of these are defined game terms, they are fluff descriptions. The Rite specifically calls out teleporting. You are breaking the narrative and being gamey with your interpretations that fire raptors teleport and jetbikes tunnel under the ground. You are promoting cheating and "that guy" attitude.

Also note you're the only one to have resorted to repeated abrasive hyperbole and name calling through-out this thread, which further leads me to believe you are unhinged and uncomprehending. You are not worth discussing anything with at all, as you now have established yourself as the seedy underbelly of the GW playerbase. You're done. Good day.

You are the epitome of "that guy". Your 'tude is not appreciated. Not at all being gamey, just using common sense - that thing you refuse to exert at all. Not arguing about tunneling - that isn't the topic. Again, you really can't comprehend what is written. As I said, we can hash out tunneling when that rule actually comes up. Since zero rules exist for "teleporting", we must assume they meant Deep Strike. To do otherwise is to be willingly obtuse and stubborn in the face of common sense.

Seedy underbelly? Seriously? You are the abrasive one that riled me up. I have a zero tolerance for jerks and TFGs. Thankfully, Ignore exists and that is what I will be using for you from here on out.

 Khar_Lupercal wrote:
Holà,

Just need some advice on this list. I wanted to try the new Serrated ROW with the models I own using its high mobility with pods and the low restriction on tanks. The first pod to land will be either the seekers or the vets to use the nuncio vox to avoid scatter for the other pods and use it for the quad mortar. Zardu goes with the slaves in the dreadclaw to drop T1 with the first wave with the GV unit. The centu can go either with the support guys or with the seekers to get some psy shriek and prey for invis. The rest of the line stay back shooting from afar. The battle tank can try to aim the enemy flyers and the venator is here to negate enemy super heavies. Zardu will pick the summoning and cursed earth.

Will be glad to get some feedbacks on this


+ HQ (375pts) +

········Legion Centurion (100pts) [Artificer Armour, Burning Lore, Refractor Field]

········Zardu Layak (275pts) [Anakatis Kul Blade-slaves, Warlord]

+ Elites (525pts) +

········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (140pts) [2x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell]

········Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery (140pts) [2x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell]

········Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (245pts) [Legion Drop Pod, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Veteran Tactics: Marksmen]
············Additional Wargear [2x Meltagun, Nuncio-vox]
············Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Chainsword/Combat Blade]

+ Troops (795pts) +

········Gal Vorbak Dark Brethren (260pts) [4x Dark Brethren, Legion Drop Pod]
············Dark Martyr [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

········Legion Tactical Support Squad (310pts) [7x Legion Space Marines, Plasma Guns, Legion Drop Pod]
············Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour]

········The Ashen Circle (225pts) [Dark Channelling, 4x Incendiary]
············Iconoclast [Artificer Armour, Phosphex Bombs, Power Axe]

+ Fast Attack (405pts) +

········Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (115pts)

········Legion Seeker Squad (290pts) [Legion Drop Pod, 8x Legion Seeker Space Marines, Nuncio-Vox]
············Legion Strike Leader [Artificer Armour]

+ Heavy Support (405pts) +

········Legion Sicaran Battle Tank (210pts) [Dozer Blade, Lascannons]

········Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer (195pts) [Dozer Blade] (combi to negate the weapon destroy result)

+ Legion +

········Legiones Astartes [ XVII: Word Bearers, Traitor]

········Rite of War [Last of the Serrated Sun]

I'd replace the quad launchers with either a Deathstorm drop pod or Tarantula Sentry Guns if you can or maybe squeeze in a Heavy Support squad with Missile Launchers

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

HandofMars wrote:
@Rolsheen - please stop and go read the other thread. Artillery is artillery, let's not rehash simple stuff that could be resolved by reading the rulebook. Just stop.

@pee - Teleporting is a form of deep strike, and assault marines do not teleport any more than they tunnel or magically cut through the veil or whatever else. None of these are defined game terms, they are fluff descriptions. The Rite specifically calls out teleporting. You are breaking the narrative and being gamey with your interpretations that fire raptors teleport and jetbikes tunnel under the ground. You are promoting cheating and "that guy" attitude.

Also note you're the only one to have resorted to repeated abrasive hyperbole and name calling through-out this thread, which further leads me to believe you are unhinged and uncomprehending. You are not worth discussing anything with at all, as you now have established yourself as the seedy underbelly of the GW playerbase. You're done. Good day.

You are the epitome of "that guy". Your 'tude is not appreciated. Not at all being gamey, just using common sense - that thing you refuse to exert at all. Not arguing about tunneling - that isn't the topic. Again, you really can't comprehend what is written. As I said, we can hash out tunneling when that rule actually comes up. Since zero rules exist for "teleporting", we must assume they meant Deep Strike. To do otherwise is to be willingly obtuse and stubborn in the face of common sense.

Seedy underbelly? Seriously? You are the abrasive one that riled me up. I have a zero tolerance for jerks and TFGs. Thankfully, Ignore exists and that is what I will be using for you from here on out.

Good, please do so, as you have been riled up and confrontational from the very start. I am "that guy" because I pointed out what the rules actually are and even stated I wouldn't bother enforcing minor issues but that the OPs should be aware of them? Really?

The units that can teleport are stated to be doing so in their datasheets and fluff blurbs, just like the mention of teleport under deep strike is a fluff blurb. By your logic, you would be playing a Zone Mortalis game set deep underground, and the scenario rules will say "only models that tunnel can be deployed via deep strike", and you would go "oh ok, tunneling == deep strike, so I'm going to bring my Fire Raptors and Storm Eagles and have them burrow under the ground because narrative doesn't matter and there is no technicality specifically defining all the various forms of deep striking. Mauahahahahah!" The fact is that you don't recognize that all of the things you rail against, being a jerk, being that guy, being a power gamer, being incapable of reading comprehension, etc.... all of those things are what you have demonstrated in this thread, continuously, while yelling at me for supposedly doing these things. You need to do some real soul-searching about what kind of person you really want to be, and what kind of game you really want to play.

Can't do the Tarantula Guns, they are Immobile.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Can't do the Tarantula Guns, they are Immobile.

Wasn't sure you could take them, so either a Deathstorm or the Heavy Support squad then

Well concerning the missile support squad they'd have to be on a drop pod which will be too expensive and they won't be able to shoot before T2/3 depending when they get deployed.

For the deathstorm it can work but IMO it is not as versatile as a quad mortar and I can use the mortars as a denial unit in my backline plus I have some nuncio voxes that can be used to get some good barrage shots. The main bonus for the deathstorm compare to the rapiers would be to give me an odd number of pods but in that case I already have 5 of them (3 first turn and the rest later)

And I don't understand, why do you think I should swap the rapiers ?

Well you could keep the rapiers if you come up with the points for the drop pods for them, but it's going to be the same as the Heavy Support squad only getting to shoot from turn 2 or 3

Ah my bad but concerning that point I'm on the side of no pods for rapiers cause they are artillery units and not infantry.

I don't know if it is the right way to play them for the moment but in my gaming club they have the same undertsanding of the rules.

I guess that if I had to take out the rapierds I'd take another sicaran or maybe a flyer like the lightning.