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in the new codex imperial agents are the new costing for hot shot acolytes worth it with carapace and hotshot? Are the plasma guns on the acolytes still the discounted 2 melta bombs?

Regular bolters are not much worse than hotshot lazguns in many cases. But way cheaper.

Problem with Hotshots is that they're still only S3, and most things that have 3+ armor also have T4 at the least, and very frequently T5+.
Doing some quick math, a single S3 AP3 hit will do 1/3rd of a wound against a T4 3+ model, while a single S4 AP5 hit will do 1/6th of a wound. So, against 3+ saves, the hot-shots are twice as good.
However, it's still 5 points for every Hotshot Lasgun, and an Acolyte in Carapace Armor is only 6pts base, so for 7pts you could have a Boltgun, or for 12pts you could have a Hotshot. In other words, it costs almost (but not quite) twice as much to take the Hotshot, and you only do a percent-equivalent amount of damage in the ideal situation.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Problem with Hotshots is that they're still only S3, and most things that have 3+ armor also have T4 at the least, and very frequently T5+.
Doing some quick math, a single S3 AP3 hit will do 1/3rd of a wound against a T4 3+ model, while a single S4 AP5 hit will do 1/6th of a wound. So, against 3+ saves, the hot-shots are twice as good.
However, it's still 5 points for every Hotshot Lasgun, and an Acolyte in Carapace Armor is only 6pts base, so for 7pts you could have a Boltgun, or for 12pts you could have a Hotshot. In other words, it costs almost (but not quite) twice as much to take the Hotshot, and you only do a percent-equivalent amount of damage in the ideal situation.

The next big problem is that it's not hard to get cover saves against high ap guns as all you have to do is toe in cover or get some terrain in the way. If the target unit has even a 5+ cover save then the hot shot is barely doing more damage then the bolter and still at the significant price increase

 CrownAxe wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Problem with Hotshots is that they're still only S3, and most things that have 3+ armor also have T4 at the least, and very frequently T5+.
Doing some quick math, a single S3 AP3 hit will do 1/3rd of a wound against a T4 3+ model, while a single S4 AP5 hit will do 1/6th of a wound. So, against 3+ saves, the hot-shots are twice as good.
However, it's still 5 points for every Hotshot Lasgun, and an Acolyte in Carapace Armor is only 6pts base, so for 7pts you could have a Boltgun, or for 12pts you could have a Hotshot. In other words, it costs almost (but not quite) twice as much to take the Hotshot, and you only do a percent-equivalent amount of damage in the ideal situation.

The next big problem is that it's not hard to get cover saves against high ap guns as all you have to do is toe in cover or get some terrain in the way. If the target unit has even a 5+ cover save then the hot shot is barely doing more damage then the bolter and still at the significant price increase

On top of all of that, it's pretty crummy damage output either way. 5pt Acolytes with Boltguns is your most efficient damage-to-cost against most targets, and that's only averaging 1/12th of a wound at long range and 1/6th of a wound at rapid fire range against Space Marine targets. Meanwhile, Space Marine targets are causing 4/9ths of a wound at long range and nearly a full wound at rapid fire, effectively meaning that Space Marines - A troop not known for being all that fantastic - Are still winning both in durability and damage output in a head-to-head battle. (Making them 4+ acolytes helps the math a little against Space Marines, but they still come out on bottom in that equation.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want high volumes of AP3, there are just much, much better ways to get it. Instead of buying 10 Acolytes with hot-shot guns, buy 5 Deathwatch Veterans. Half the shots, but they're BS4 and S4, and have a ton of other, more versatile options to go along with the AP3 shots.

I actually like the acolytes with storm bolters as they aren't that much more expensive but get alot more shots as I tend to try to stay at range more often than not.

A bunch of them with possible divination support and storm bolters put out some very respectable damage at 24 range.

True at 12' they are not as efficient as bolters but I like the ability to assault at that last bit of range too. Keeps my options open.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Problem with Hotshots is that they're still only S3, and most things that have 3+ armor also have T4 at the least, and very frequently T5+.
Doing some quick math, a single S3 AP3 hit will do 1/3rd of a wound against a T4 3+ model, while a single S4 AP5 hit will do 1/6th of a wound. So, against 3+ saves, the hot-shots are twice as good.
However, it's still 5 points for every Hotshot Lasgun, and an Acolyte in Carapace Armor is only 6pts base, so for 7pts you could have a Boltgun, or for 12pts you could have a Hotshot. In other words, it costs almost (but not quite) twice as much to take the Hotshot, and you only do a percent-equivalent amount of damage in the ideal situation.

The next big problem is that it's not hard to get cover saves against high ap guns as all you have to do is toe in cover or get some terrain in the way. If the target unit has even a 5+ cover save then the hot shot is barely doing more damage then the bolter and still at the significant price increase

Wasn't "toe in cover" removed in the FAQ?

only for mc and gmc iirc

At that point just use Scions.

 koooaei wrote:
only for mc and gmc iirc

Those are the main ones that toe in cover applied to though.

Alcibiades wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
only for mc and gmc iirc

Those are the main ones that toe in cover applied to though.

No, Toe in cover applied to all non-vehicle models, it is just a general rule for getting cover.

Should clarify that toe in cover only works in ruins (and after faq for non-mc/gmc only) - true los for other stuff.

Just had a look at the book - the acolyte point costs for weapons are very silly. 10 pts for a plasma and the same for a flamer? 10 pts for a combi-version of said special weapon?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At that point just use Scions.

Yeah I've done some calculations and, as much as I would like to kit out Acolytes, this just comes out as the better option.

For a very small increase in points you get BS4, Move Through Cover, and Deepstrike, giving Scions the edge.

I painted up my Scions in the color scheme of the Inquisition. So I just run my Scions as my Inquisitor's "Stormtroopers", using Scion rules of course. (I play as Imperial Guard so I have easy access to them)

peirceg wrote:
Just had a look at the book - the acolyte point costs for weapons are very silly. 10 pts for a plasma and the same for a flamer? 10 pts for a combi-version of said special weapon?

The reason the Plasma is cheaper and Flamer is more expensive is because the Flamer is comparitively stronger and the Plasma is weaker - Auto-hitting is better for Bs3 models than it is for Bs4, but shooting a Gets Hot weapon is worse for Bs3 5+ than it is for Bs4 3+.

Combi-weapons... I dunno.

The reason for plasma is cheaper and flamer is more expensive is because gw screwed up again.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
only for mc and gmc iirc

Those are the main ones that toe in cover applied to though.

No, Toe in cover applied to all non-vehicle models, it is just a general rule for getting cover.

But it barely matters for a non-MC/GC. An infantry model pretty which is a toe.

Anyway, what matters is that it doesn't exist for monstrous critters now, making such weapons more effective..