Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As the title says. First game with the new Pink Horrors today, and I have to say, it was... Concerning.
I was bringing Sisters of Battle with some SoS, Custodes, and a bit of Inquisition for flavor. (Basically, I was trying out all my disparate kits and voltronning into one army.)
He brought a Daemonic Incursion, mostly with Exalted Flamers (17 of them, to be precise), but also with one unit of 20 Pink Horrors. Neither of us had all too 'competitive' of a list, but it was interesting to say the least.

I'll spare you the full turn-by-turn breakdown: I won, it was Maelstrom and I got a bunch of VPs early on, but he wiped my entire army except for my Custodes deathstar, who ended up locked in combat with a Soulgrinder that they couldn't hurt after Coteaz - who had been giving them Hammerhand - died. His unit of Pink Horrors were easily an MVP, though, simply because of how impossible they were to deal with: I fired 5 Sororitas Command Squad members with Condemner Boltguns at them, and got a few Perils on his heralds, then charged. Thanks to the fact that his Heralds had no melee weapons, and I was fighting Pink Horrors, I actually won combat. Problem was, I'd killed some twelve-odd Pink Horrors before I got to the point where they had to take an Instability check, so he had over twenty Blue Horrors just sitting by to slaughter me. I managed to kill the Blue Horrors in a multi-charge using my Custodes deathstar, but then Brimstone horrors popped out - It was like whack-a-mole, except that the moles were also shooting at me.

By the end of the game, I had probably killed maybe 800 points of models, but thanks to a few things (Summoning, the remainder of his splits, and one lucky Incursion roll) he had gotten back 300-ish points of models, and so still had a fairly decent 1500 point list still sitting around on the board. (My math could be off a little here, I don't know precise points.) Thanks to the nature of the pink horrors, I couldn't do a thing to stop them - I'd get locked in combat, and they'd pop out of it with more models than ever. I'd kill them, and there'd be even MORE models on the board.

And heck, this was only 20 Pink Horrors. If I had a more competitive list, I might have been able to handle it more deftly, but this wasn't exactly going up against a tournament list either.


I'm concerned about having to face Pink Horrors in numbers now. We proxied for this game, but if someone tries to bring more than 20 or so Pink Horrors to a game, I think I'm going to demand that they have their models by Wysiwyg.

Any horror squads wiped out from daemonic instability doesn't split (and the would be split from close combat casualties are lost)

So just don't shoot horrors at all and assault them

Yeah, blue horrors appear at the end of the phase, so sounds like your opponent did it totally wrong.

The only time they don't appear at the end of the phase is if the unit is it the whole unit it wiped out, and if this happens due to instability, no new horrors spawn

This is why, at tournaments I run, I insist on WYSIWYG, and while I don't insist on GW only models it has to be readily apparent what the model is and be of very close size comparison to the GW model.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll be interested to hear what other experiences people have with the new Horrors.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 CrownAxe wrote:
Any horror squads wiped out from daemonic instability doesn't split (and the would be split from close combat casualties are lost)

So just don't shoot horrors at all and assault them

Where is that mentioned? From the way I (and he) read it in the codex, models removed by Instability don't create Horrors, but I don't see it anywhere that the models lost earlier in the combat don't split. If that's the case, they're still scary, but not nearly so bad.

IIRC it's specifically mentioned that if the unit's wiped, you still get to place the models counting from the last-to-be-removed one.

 koooaei wrote:
IIRC it's specifically mentioned that if the unit's wiped, you still get to place the models counting from the last-to-be-removed one.

It also specifies that this doesn't happen if they wiped to Daemonic Instability

 CrownAxe wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
IIRC it's specifically mentioned that if the unit's wiped, you still get to place the models counting from the last-to-be-removed one.

It also specifies that this doesn't happen if they wiped to Daemonic Instability

No, it doesn't. It says "If a rule causes a whole unit of Pink Horrors to be removed at once (excluding Daemonic Instability), you can immediately create a unit of Blue Horrors". It doesn't say that you don't get to place the models that were killed in combat if they are removed by instability, you just don't get to place the models that were killed by the instability check itself. There is nothing in the Split rule that says you don't get to place models that weren't killed by Instability.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Any horror squads wiped out from daemonic instability doesn't split (and the would be split from close combat casualties are lost)

So just don't shoot horrors at all and assault them

Where is that mentioned? From the way I (and he) read it in the codex, models removed by Instability don't create Horrors, but I don't see it anywhere that the models lost earlier in the combat don't split. If that's the case, they're still scary, but not nearly so bad.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
IIRC it's specifically mentioned that if the unit's wiped, you still get to place the models counting from the last-to-be-removed one.

It also specifies that this doesn't happen if they wiped to Daemonic Instability

No, it doesn't. It says "If a rule causes a whole unit of Pink Horrors to be removed at once (excluding Daemonic Instability), you can immediately create a unit of Blue Horrors". It doesn't say that you don't get to place the models that were killed in combat if they are removed by instability, you just don't get to place the models that were killed by the instability check itself. There is nothing in the Split rule that says you don't get to place models that weren't killed by Instability.

It's just a logical extrapolations of the rules. The models killed prior to being wiped out are specifically placed at the end of the phase. But since units wiped out to instability don't let you split immediately you still have to wait until the end of phase for those previous casualties to split. But by the end of the phase the Pink Horror unit no longer exists for you to place within 6" of so you can no longer legally place the would be Split horrors.

 CrownAxe wrote:

It's just a logical extrapolations of the rules. The models killed prior to being wiped out are specifically placed at the end of the phase. But since units wiped out to instability don't let you split immediately you still have to wait until the end of phase for those previous casualties to split. But by the end of the phase the Pink Horror unit no longer exists for you to place within 6" of so you can no longer legally place the would be Split horrors.

So, it's not an actual written rule, it's just something you're extrapolating. That's a bit of conflicted verbiage, but I don't know if it is as certain as you seem to be assuming it is.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

It's just a logical extrapolations of the rules. The models killed prior to being wiped out are specifically placed at the end of the phase. But since units wiped out to instability don't let you split immediately you still have to wait until the end of phase for those previous casualties to split. But by the end of the phase the Pink Horror unit no longer exists for you to place within 6" of so you can no longer legally place the would be Split horrors.

So, it's not an actual written rule, it's just something you're extrapolating. That's a bit of conflicted verbiage, but I don't know if it is as certain as you seem to be assuming it is.

How else is it supposed to work? The way I described it is the only way for the Split rule to resolve in that situation. You will get to the end of phase and not have the Horror squad to place within 6" of.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

It's just a logical extrapolations of the rules. The models killed prior to being wiped out are specifically placed at the end of the phase. But since units wiped out to instability don't let you split immediately you still have to wait until the end of phase for those previous casualties to split. But by the end of the phase the Pink Horror unit no longer exists for you to place within 6" of so you can no longer legally place the would be Split horrors.

So, it's not an actual written rule, it's just something you're extrapolating. That's a bit of conflicted verbiage, but I don't know if it is as certain as you seem to be assuming it is.

How else is it supposed to work? The way I described it is the only way for the Split rule to resolve in that situation. You will get to the end of phase and not have the Horror squad to place within 6" of.

You're technically right, but that creates another conflict, and kind of breaks the rules. See, it says "If a rule causes a whole unit of Pink Horrors to be removed at once..." (it then gives permission to place models right away), but that only works if the unit of Pink Horrors was removed by the same rule - If two different rules cause the unit of pink horrors to be removed, and if its not at the same time, then only the Pink Horrors removed at the very end get to Split.
If we take the book completely literally, RAW, then if one unit shoots a unit of Pink Horrors down to just one model left, and then someone else shoots them and causes one more wound, then only two Blue Horrors would get to spawn, and all of the other casualties that turn wouldn't get to Split.

So yes, your reading of the rules is absolutely correct if we take everything at literal, exact face value, but if we take everything in the 40k rules at literal, exact face value, then it usually breaks the game.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

It's just a logical extrapolations of the rules. The models killed prior to being wiped out are specifically placed at the end of the phase. But since units wiped out to instability don't let you split immediately you still have to wait until the end of phase for those previous casualties to split. But by the end of the phase the Pink Horror unit no longer exists for you to place within 6" of so you can no longer legally place the would be Split horrors.

So, it's not an actual written rule, it's just something you're extrapolating. That's a bit of conflicted verbiage, but I don't know if it is as certain as you seem to be assuming it is.

How else is it supposed to work? The way I described it is the only way for the Split rule to resolve in that situation. You will get to the end of phase and not have the Horror squad to place within 6" of.

You're technically right, but that creates another conflict, and kind of breaks the rules. See, it says "If a rule causes a whole unit of Pink Horrors to be removed at once..." (it then gives permission to place models right away), but that only works if the unit of Pink Horrors was removed by the same rule - If two different rules cause the unit of pink horrors to be removed, and if its not at the same time, then only the Pink Horrors removed at the very end get to Split.
If we take the book completely literally, RAW, then if one unit shoots a unit of Pink Horrors down to just one model left, and then someone else shoots them and causes one more wound, then only two Blue Horrors would get to spawn, and all of the other casualties that turn wouldn't get to Split.

So yes, your reading of the rules is absolutely correct if we take everything at literal, exact face value, but if we take everything in the 40k rules at literal, exact face value, then it usually breaks the game.

So? How is that breaking the game?

 CrownAxe wrote:

No you are wrong. The wiped out rule lets all the of the split horrors instantly show up regardless of when they were killed in the phase. The game doesn't break under my interpretation

Are we reading the same rule? It very clearly states:
"... You can immediately create a new unit of Blue Horrors, just before removing the last model from the Pink Horrors unit. The unit of Blue Horrors has two models for each model in the Pink Horrors unit at the point at which it is removed and must be set up with all models within 6" of the last model from the Pink Horrors unit.

(Emphasis mine.)
So, all the previous casualties would still place at the end of the phase instead of right when the new unit splits. Except, the previous casualties have nowhere to spawn into, because the whole Pink Horror unit is gone - If we're going with 'You can't spawn if the Pink Horrors unit is gone', which is what you need to read the rules as if you want Daemonic Instability to kill them all, then that means that the rule also prevents Pink Horrors from splitting once their squad is killed, except for the models who were alive when they took their last shooting/melee attack.

If you are going to take it that literally at that point there are 0 pink horrors because they were all wiped out. The only logical conclusion is that "at that point" applies to the phase

 CrownAxe wrote:
If you are going to take it that literally at that point there are 0 pink horrors because they were all wiped out. The only logical conclusion is that "at that point" applies to the phase

Well then you agree with me, we can't take these rules 100% literally or it breaks the game. Therefore, some interpretation is needed - And, at least by the way I read it, you can't say that Instability prevents earlier casualties from spawning unless you also say that the whole unit dying prevents earlier casualties from spawning as well.

Being a Space Wolves player I was just frustrated by the horrors, he made the unit big enough that my TWC didn't just shred them in a single turn and he kept making 5++ saves and Snake Eyes for Leadership blasted things held the TWC up for three turns before the Wulfen arrived and a further turn before succumbing.
I think if it wasn't for my opponent's divine rolling they would have died during his turn or my second turn.
Still, what they did enabled Magnus to properly own my other TWC pack and take the overall win.

The bright side is at least horrors don't get demonology anymore.

It's annoying but I'm more concerned that you can spam the upgrade to double the splits more. Also blues shouldn't split again to brimstone; that's the way I plan to play them myself if I bother getting enough blues set up to cover the pinks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Being a Space Wolves player I was just frustrated by the horrors, he made the unit big enough that my TWC didn't just shred them in a single turn

I'm actually happy about this part.

Indeed the horrors "vanished" by Daemonic Instability dont split. But the ones killed in close combat do. That is the magic hahaha

FAQ resolves all of the above:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/03/wrath-of-magnus-faq/

If the unit wipes, in the phase, due to instability, it clears the board. This, and I quote, "stops them from Splitting."

The quote cited above is describing what to do if the unit is wiped out under any circumstance other than instability, in phase.

It also tells you how to handle placing the Blues/Brims when an entire squad of Pinks is wiped.

Interesting follow up to the FAQ, however, is whether a unit of Pinkies wiped due to CC wounds is still subject to an Instability check. If not, then you could run into the issue where you kill all the Pinkies in one round of CC, but they still come back having never had to take an Instability check (or passing it, even if so).

I can't wait to pull that last trick against an unwitting opponent!

The way I read it is that the only way for you to not place models from a split is if the unit disappears via rolling double 6 for instability. Everything else (including casualties taken from rolls of <12 on instability) causes you to place split models for every model that dies.

The newly split models are placed at the end of the phase, and must be placed within 6" of a member of the original unit.

If there are no members of the original unit left at the end of the phase, they cannot be placed within 6" of them so they cannot be placed.

That was my reading of the rule...

The FAQ posted states that if the unit is wiped out they must be placed within 6" of the last model before its removed.
Yes pink horrors are now really good hut without malefic they are basically going to be warp charge batteries who will finally allow you to have enough spare dice to use the witch fires

Okay, that FAQ clears it up a bit, and makes Horrors slightly less intimidating. Still crazy good, but not utterly unstoppable.

 n0t_u wrote:
The bright side is at least horrors don't get demonology anymore.

It's annoying but I'm more concerned that you can spam the upgrade to double the splits more. Also blues shouldn't split again to brimstone; that's the way I plan to play them myself if I bother getting enough blues set up to cover the pinks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Being a Space Wolves player I was just frustrated by the horrors, he made the unit big enough that my TWC didn't just shred them in a single turn

I'm actually happy about this part.

Credit where credit is due. If a unit does something impressive it deserves to be noted.
I hardly think they're over powered or undercosted - they just have that chance of surviving that makes them potentially awesome tar-pit units.

I am with Crownaxe & Ynneadwraith on this one.

The Blue horrors that split from CC attacks are never actually created until the end of the phase and must be placed within 6" of the last Pink removed. The "immediately placed" clause ceases to apply if Instability wipes the unit.
If instability wipes the whole unit (whether by rolling double 6 or any roll that kills every last survivor) than no Blues are split AND no Pinks are left to place any Blues that are "waiting" to be created from the CC casualties.

Considering that no other rule AT ALL stops splitting, this seems more than fair. Tactically it makes large units of Horrors not very good as you want the whole unit to be wiped from the CC attacks and to NOT have to take an Instability check.
2x 11 Horrors are VASLTY better than 1x 20 for this reason

-