Switch Theme:

Traitor Legion Black Tide  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Blood Sacrifice to Khorne





Obviously fielding space marines in foot blobs is not the most competitive strategy, so keep in mind my interest is primarily for friendly games. I really like the idea of massed space marine infantry rushing forward to close quarters, and have always wanted to capitalize on the ability to field lots of "cheap" marines in the CSM codex in a twisted reflection of the BT black tide. Despite CSM tac marines being overcosted and inferior by comparison to regular marines, the biggest issue in my opinion was having to rely on banners or an attached character for Fearless. The rules from Traitor Legions buffed the basic CSM unit more than any other, so I'm considering how best to exploit this in an army fielding as many boots on the ground as possible.

Which of the legions seem best suited for this kind of deployment? Fearless seems like one of the most important things to pick up, so I was mostly looking at death guard, world eaters and emperors children. EC can get T4 and 4+FNP, but this is more expensive than basic death guard marines since you have to buy the banner and ultimately probably not as durable either. I5 vs I3 in combat does make a big difference against a lot of opponents. Death guard also grants relentless, which *seems* like a really big deal, since you can fire bolters and assault or sprinkle heavy weapons throughout the blobs. On the other hand, world eaters come in pretty cheap and ironically benefit from the same rules that the black templars trade on (Rage, Counterattack, Furious Charge). Which would you be more afraid of?

A few more of my own thoughts: Going for a 'black tide' style army means recognizing that your advantage lies in numbers and a large, fearless footprint. Long range shooting is not really in the cards. The strategy is almost always going to be to plow forward until whatever is left of one's force is in range and trusting that you will triumph against enemies weak to bolter shots and krak grenades. Land raiders, ironclads, flyers and the like are going to be tough (melta bombs?) and the black tide general is trusting that those elements will not be able to turn the tables on the numerical advantage over the course of the game. Is it worth peppering death guard blob squads with missile launchers or lascannons? Against an army of retreating transports, those bolters might not be doing anything anyway - it would sure feel like wasted points to fire 6 lascannons at a transport off of 1850 points of marines, but its an option. Figuring out which upgrades is tough, because special weapons and power weapons stack up quickly. In a world eaters army, when you are already committing to the virtues of bolter and krak, spending the points to buy close combat weapons for some of the marines is almost as appealing as buying one of them a fancy gun. I was assuming 5-6 mixed blob squads of 15-20 marines depending on loadout, with mixed squads of bolters up front and close combat weapons following behind (assuming you don't spring for both).

Buying rhinos for the marines seems like an obvious suggestion. It might be a good one. Here is my rationalization for not doing so, even though the real reason is I don't like them. If maximizing bodies, one of your main advantages is nullifying the strength of your opponent's dedicated AT guns. Throw a couple transports into the mix and you're just giving them a target, and they probably won't last long but will furthermore allow your opponent to make their points back even more quickly. I know it's kind of flimsy.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Toronto

The obvious answers are the ones you pointed out:

World Eaters: Fearless, Rage, Furious Charge, and good mobility options with the detachment 2d6move and talisman artifact (and access to fleet and/or reroll charges). Running berzerker formations isnt really cheap, and they loose out to regular marines, so youll have to take the warband for the detachment (which means some taxes on units you might not want to take). They'll also have some anti-tank problems without some support. While theyre fast and hit hard, they arent as durable as some of the other legions.

Emperors Children: Can get special rules out the wazoo with the detachment and icons, but the costs really start to stack up. As foot blobs, they also don't have much mobility to get across the field. Noise marine formations are probably a good way to go for great shooting firepower, but again with the higher costs, and will also need some anti-tank help.

Death Guard: Probably the strongest pure foot army, with great durability and relentless (don't forget about double tapping bolters then charging!), these guys check off the most boxes.

Black Legion: These guys also have some good rules with Hounds of Abbadon and their detachment. Sort of like World Eaters, but they trade fearless for super-hatred. Crusader, extra charge range, and run-then-charge also makes them almost as mobile. With free Mark of Khorne, they're also a bit cheaper as well.

Alpha Legion: Infiltrating marines lets you mitigate a lot of the mobility and cover problems that plague foot armies. Also, the mindveil artifact is great for just chucking huge footblobs around the field. They really don't get any fancy goodies from marks or votl though.

   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






It can even end up competitive if you also ally in a bunch of wizards.
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






Black Legion will probably do the most damage, but you lack objective secured. Though for me that isn't a big loss on 20 man blobs. They're more like blunt weapons in my eye.
In that sense Hounds of abaddon can threaten a wide range of units if you give them the icon of wrath. That many S6 attacks is pretty scary. It might even be worth kitting out their champions due to S10 pf or S8 mauls.
And if you're planning to reach melee, hatred makes a huge difference.

Either way you will want to support them with psykers. So if you take a cabal, you could fish for soulswitch and move them up. If you skip the icon and take 3 units of 20 you save enough points for almost 5 mastery levels.
Since you want a tide, the free points from the hounds are pretty helpful, though with this kind of list you might not get much out of the decurion bonus.
If you do give them bolters as well as CCWs they essentially become cheaper and better khorne marked chosen. You won't get much use out of the bolters generally, but they can still be used in conjunction with ghost storm this way.
And if they are counter charged, you still have mark of khorne for +1 attack and 40 shots for overwatch so it's not a terrible option.




   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Newcastle

I love the concept, and since every legion's basic CSM guys get some kind of boost you have plenty of options. Chaos spawn would work alongside them for their cheap wounds and helpful mobility. Maybe bikers.

Black Legion gives lots of options, hatred everything and you could hide dangerous guys like Abaddon or a hand of darkness character in a unit, then hop to the next blob if that unit takes too much damage.

Iron Warriors have 6+ FNP... which is okay... I suppose you could think of them as the guys that move in after the heavy artillery has knocked down the enemy defenses.

A slow horde of guys on foot doesn't seem very fluffy for Night Lords but with stealth on everyone you could take advantage of screening units (cultists) to give 4+ cover to the marines behind them. Maybe even build a hybrid list with half of your army being bikes, raptors and a stormbolt plate daemon prince and the other half the CSM horde. 925 points is still three units of 20 chaos marines with plenty of points for upgrades

Alpha Legion... blobs of infiltrating CSM squads would be fun, but would probably work better as a hybrid CSM and cultist list.

Hydra Dominatus 
   
Made in us
Blood Sacrifice to Khorne





I have a feeling that including chosen, raptors and havocs and a spawn or two to utilize the world eaters blood mad movement plus having the burning blood relic on a big squad is perhaps the only way to put the pressure on early enough. Since knights and wraithknights seem to be mostly immune to the offensive power of mass foot marines, ignoring / tarpitting them seems to be the order of the day. Ignoring a single wraithknight has not been a major issue in many games against my sole eldar opponent, although that thing is fearsome. Still I think including a few blobs of cultists in favor of marines might play to this style of list's true strengths.

However I wondered if anyone had opinions on this alternative: 100 T5 FNP Death Guard marines can be included for ~1650 points. For 1625 you could also bring 70 Emperor's Children raptors with FNP banners, which is trading 30 bodies for that sweet 12" movement and 4+ jink save against those pesky ap3 weapons. Being able to save against many ap3 shots with 4+/4+ as you rush headlong towards assault seems like it might result in more marines making it into smash range, in less time. Would using a raptor talon this way be about as effective as the jump infantry spam BA armies of yore? That is to say, mediocre except against Tau and Eldar, where they fair poorly?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/02 21:25:30


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: