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The game seemed to be on a downhill slide for a while. How is it now?

I actually consider 5th the glory days - sure things got bland and there were uneven power levels, but you bought your rule book/codex and that was it.

Currently there is way too much bloat with all the supplements and detachments. I would wait another 6 months for the release of 8th edition before jumping back into 40k. There are supposedly some major overhauls of the rules going to take place and no one is sure what will happen to existing codices.

Don't let things like "the game has too much bloat" scare you away. The game doesn't have too much bloat. You only still need 1 rulebook and 1 codex to play.

The negative: Balance, the game has some serious balance issues due to power creep and free bonusses. This is a serious thing if you are a tournament player but not that hard to fix in casual games. Since casual games always required some tact in matching the power lv's of the armies.

The good thing: This edition is almost like DnD 3.5 : D
Almost anything you want to play is playable now, there are tons of supplements, new codexes, and ways to field an army.

Army specific:
Ultra Marines are in a good place.



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Useful books for you:
Required:
Codex space marines.
Small 7th rulebook.

Optional:
- Space marine specific power cards, all the normal powers are in the rulebook, but there are also space marine specific powers and these are great
- Angels of Death supplement. This book contains a ton of cool new formations and the space marine specific powers. You don't need this book to build a good army but it is a nice tome filled with options. ( see it as player handbook II if you are a DnD 3.5 player)


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Also the times are fantastic if you want to buy new marines in alternative armour, Since GW has some great chapter neutral marine sets. with mini's in them.

-Calth set.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/The-Horus-Heresy-Betrayal-at-Calth-Book

-Prospero.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Burning-of-Prospero-ENG

You can even play a new game with your marines called 30k. : D

shok wrote:
The game seemed to be on a downhill slide for a while. How is it now?

Remember how Forge World's ridiculous gak used to just be for fluff bunnies and wealthy powergame nerds? It's part of the core game now It's just as silly as it was in 5th too.

The game is now mini apocalypse as it allows one LoW unit to enter a normal FoC.
Games with a LoW selection can be a steep uphill battle. Have a look at an Imperial Knight or a Wraithknight.

It sucks. Horribly.

Doing 2nd edition night at my FLGS for a few months reminded me what actually attracted me to the game in the first place. Much of it's charm has been replaced by pedantry and power creep.

The current ruleset requires someone to be a walking encyclopedia to understand. The current Codex structure requires people to buy up to 7 books just to play certain armies / factions. The current cost of starting a new army is incredibly high compared with US average household salaries and has almost as much impact as purchasing a car.

Being really, really honest here. The quality of the game has an impact on people's lives akin to drugs. Many of my friends have been chased out of the game by their wives, who are not going to tolerate that level of wastefulness in the family's finances.

Indeed, our maelstrom games take about 5 hours or so if you take it seriously. This includes setting up terrain and basic rolling (traits and powers), rule negotiations, and whatnot.

The rule book alone is a piece of crap on 150 pages. If one my students had delivered such a work as a Master's thesis, I would have given it back for rewriting and shortening.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The game is now mini apocalypse as it allows one LoW unit to enter a normal FoC.
Games with a LoW selection can be a steep uphill battle. Have a look at an Imperial Knight or a Wraithknight.

How many LOW's do you face in a regular casual game, and are they really the issue right now ?
I never faced true high point titan class stuff in any non appoc 7th game, and the mid lv LOW stuff such as knights just fill the old 5th edition heavy support slot to be honest. They do not really make my games feel like appocalyps, they do not make me bring a bucket to shove in my casualties in. This role is reserved for the hyper efficient regular units with either insane high rate of fire or horrible close combat efficiency. These units are known however and can be simply avoided by opponents who want to play a fun casual game.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The game is now mini apocalypse as it allows one LoW unit to enter a normal FoC.
Games with a LoW selection can be a steep uphill battle. Have a look at an Imperial Knight or a Wraithknight.

How many LOW's do you face in a regular casual game, and are they really the issue right now ?
I never faced true titan class stuff in any non appoc 7th game, and the real LOW stuff such as knights just fill the old 5th edition heavy support slot to be honest. They do not really make my games feel like appocalyps, they do not make me bring a bucket to shove in my casualties in. This role is reserved for the hyper efficient regular units with either insane high rate of fire or horrible close combat efficiency. These units are known however and can be simply avoided by opponents who want to play a fun casual game.

Well, I face a Stormsurge or an Imperial Knight regularly.
And me, my Eldar never go out without a Wraithknight.
But you are right, there are other units out there which can make your day, like a Wolfstar.

 techsoldaten wrote:

The current Codex structure requires people to buy up to 7 books just to play certain armies / factions.

No you don't this is total nonsense name 1 single faction army that NEEDS 7 books to play a decent list.
I can't come up with a single faction army that needs more than 3. This being 1 a rulebook, 2 a codex and 3 the supplement you with rules for your obscure faction that would not even exist without the luxury of having this suplement. . Sure there are a ton of cool supplements but you don't need them do you?



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 wuestenfux wrote:

But you are right, there are other units out there which can make your day, like a Wolfstar.

Sure the meta has shifted a lot since 5th but would you say that wolfstar or equivalents in are more common than paladin starts in 5th ?
I would argue that the same players who bring a wolf star eq. in a modern casual game would also have brought a paladin star, a seer star or a nob star in 5th.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

The current Codex structure requires people to buy up to 7 books just to play certain armies / factions.

No you don't this is total nonsense name 1 single faction army that NEEDS 7 books to play a decent list.
I can't come up with a single faction army that needs more than 3. This being 1 a rulebook, 2 a codex and 3 the supplement you with rules for your obscure faction that would not even exist without the luxury of having this suplement. . Sure there are a ton of cool supplements but you don't need them do you?

Up to 7 books, not needs 7 books. There is a difference.

Let's take Chaos. To field an army, you have to have:

- Warhammer 40k BRB
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines

To field a decent army, you need both of the following:

- Traitor's Hate (for formations and decent psychic powers)
- Traitor Legions (for legion specific rules)

To field an army that comes close to being competitive, you need some combination of the following:

- Wrath of Magnus (for TS rules that includes the Split rule for horrors and the Change discipline)
- Codex: Chaos Daemons (for Daemon allies)
- Imperial Armor 13 (for LoR, decent flyers, ordinance and long range firepower)
- Khorne Daemonkin (for alternate playstyle)
- Codex: Crimson Slaughter (for slightly better than stock CSM)
- Dataslate: Helbrutes (for Helbrute formations)

This is ignoring Dataslate: Cypher, the Black Legion supplement, and probably something else I am forgetting.

Right now, I am running a Black Legion army with a CAD that includes a Fire Raptor and a Rapier Weapons Battery. That's 5 books I have to have - BRB, C:CSM, TH, TL, IA:13.

Sure, I could get that down to 4 by forgoing Forgeworld stuff. But not less than that, not with a decent list. Even playing a friendly match with anything less is dissatisfying.

How could I get to the point where I need 7? Easy. Start with the BRB, C:CSM, and TH, take WoM for a TS summoning list, take C:CD to get the rules for anything you summon, take Dataslate: Helbrutes for the cultist shield, and take IA:13 for those Rapiers. This might actually be the best way to play TS in 1850+ point games, having some cheap long-range firepower in the form of conversion beamers could make a huge difference for that army.

There is a big difference between needing books to play the game, and feeling you need all the books available to you as a min maxer in order to get the max out of your army ; )

 oldzoggy wrote:
There is a big difference between needing books to play the game, and feeling you need all the books available to you as a min maxer in order to get the max out of your army ; )

True. But the question was how is the game going, and the fact is I need at least 4 books to make a Chaos army. That's telling.

Terrible it's gone down in quality massively, 5th had its issues but it was fun despite them but 7th is a chore to play.

 techsoldaten wrote:
the fact is I need at least 4 books to make a Chaos army. That's telling.

That is dependent on what you mean with "Chaos".

A CSM army requires exactly two books, as does a Daemons army. You only need more if you want to combine both, or add things like Legions rules - which is a choice of yours, not a requirement from the game itself.

Despite all the salt in this thread, 7th is actually pretty fun. It's opened up a lot of options, with a couple new armies, tons of new sourcebooks, and lots of extra material. The big divide is there's a lot of rules bloat/inconsistencies and there's a big power divide between armies.

If you can find a group that either plays only competitive or only for fun, then you're golden. The problem most people run into is they don't distinguish the two before starting a game, and one army will easily overpower the other.