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So we have a player in my gaming circle that isn't a bad dude, he's just particular. He's particular in that he HATES any form of cheese that isn't Space Marine flavoured. You want to play Genestealers against him? He's going to nit pick every time you move a model what looks like more than 6", read to him every new rule from the codex. But if you show up with a Double-Demi Company of Ultramarines with 10 free transports, he's all good.

We're going to call this player "Mike". Mike will bring the cheesiest Space Marines, in his mind, that he can. On this fateful day, he decided to bring 30ish White Scars bikes and a flying formation. I let him know since I'm preparing for the GT here in a few months, I'll be playing a competitive Tau list. No worries, he was confident his Outflanking and scouting bikes could get to me.

We roll off sides, roll off deployment. I get first turn. He chooses to only outflank 1 unit, the rest starts on the board. He deploys them all 12" in, and then his scouting move of 12". I'm Tau. Everything is now within at least 18" of my models, and almost everything else after a short move can now rapid fire.

Queue the biggest complaint session in the history of our gaming circle. Mike went full QQ. I took out about 3/4 of his army turn 1. Now, I will agree that Tau shooting is OP. However, he could have easily negated my alpha strike by Outflanking the majority of his army. When I tried explaning to him what he did wrong in a friendly manner, he went off even worse.

How would you guys have handled the situation? Me? I started laughing. I couldn't help it.

I just don't play against those people once I find out who they are. There are several people I just refuse to play because it effects my enjoyment of the game. In the end I play because I enjoy it.

 Vash108 wrote:
I just don't play against those people once I find out who they are. There are several people I just refuse to play because it effects my enjoyment of the game. In the end I play because I enjoy it.

It's slowly starting to get that way with Mike. One of our other players refuses to play him now, but the rest of us are tolerant of him because he's genuinely a decent person. Just a exceptionally sore loser when he's not playing against Astartes.

Yep, don't play against idiots like this. And honestly, other people shouldn't either. That gets a message across pretty quick. And be blunt about it.

"I'd rather not play against you, it's not fun and you flip out too much. I'm not interested in wasting my time doing that."

A lot of idiots remain idiots because people will not openly confront them about it.

Laughing probably didn't help. I'll listen to SOME rant, but otherwise I'm with Vash108. Next time, I'd decline the game.

At the time: "OK: Here's the rulebook. Here's the codex. Here are the dataslates/formations/magic mushrooms/anything else required. I'm going for a coffee. When I get back, show me where I broke any rules."

I just don't play against those people. I generally have a day a week at the very most I would be able to get any games in and if I do I want to have fun or have a nice challenge to face off against. Neither of those involve wasting my time on some whiny annoyance or a cheater.

Don't play them, run an equally brutal tournament list, or play them with a meme list.

I generally try to keep casual during games, but frankly in your situation I would have flat-out told him he'd made the wrong choice not opting to outflank right before the turn-1 salvo. Maybe offer him another game if it really did resolve super-quickly.

Ultimately that kind of attitude exists in some variation in every game system (it is, in fact, the definition of the term scrub) and it's as unpleasant to the guy dishing it out as it is to the people putting up with it.

Frankly you did all you really can do to mitigate it: you told him what you thought he could have done for better results (and presumably kept cool about it), the rest is up to him. He can either see 'Tau good at shooting' as still another way the universe is messing with him, or he can acknowledge it's the way things are, push that knowledge beyond the academic, and start thinking about what that means for how he plays his army.

That said, I'm super ignorant on how to play bike marines, would outflanking everything really have helped?

Has anyone tried talking to him? Short of that, I don't play people like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I generally try to keep casual during games, but frankly in your situation I would have flat-out told him he'd made the wrong choice not opting to outflank right before the turn-1 salvo. Maybe offer him another game if it really did resolve super-quickly.

Ultimately that kind of attitude exists in some variation in every game system (it is, in fact, the definition of the term scrub) and it's as unpleasant to the guy dishing it out as it is to the people putting up with it.

Frankly you did all you really can do to mitigate it: you told him what you thought he could have done for better results (and presumably kept cool about it), the rest is up to him. He can either see 'Tau good at shooting' as still another way the universe is messing with him, or he can acknowledge it's the way things are, push that knowledge beyond the academic, and start thinking about what that means for how he plays his army.

That said, I'm super ignorant on how to play bike marines, would outflanking everything really have helped?

Yes and no. Outflanking would have helped, because he can now come in on the sides and ideally get right at the guys back line. The downside is, he leaves 1 or 2 units on the board, and if those die, he auto-loses before Turn 2. Also, he's at the whim of Reserve rolls for when his reinforcements come in.

 Captain Joystick wrote:


That said, I'm super ignorant on how to play bike marines, would outflanking everything really have helped?

Had he kept a unit or two out of shooting distance, or at worst within distance of 2 models of mine, and Outflanked his army he could have completely negated my "Alpha Strike" and created his own.

The idea behind Outflanking second turn would have been to bring all his hard hitting Melta and Grav bikes on and get to shoot first since it'd be his turn. I'd get my interceptor from 3 Riptides, but they wouldn't be nearly as strong as if it were my turn.

It's one of the tactics that makes White Scars bikes so good. If you go first, scout them ahead and unleash hell. If you go second, put two units on the board the furthest possible distance and wait for turn 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Yes and no. Outflanking would have helped, because he can now come in on the sides and ideally get right at the guys back line. The downside is, he leaves 1 or 2 units on the board, and if those die, he auto-loses before Turn 2. Also, he's at the whim of Reserve rolls for when his reinforcements come in.

It's a risky move, but a lot less risky than moving them all within 12" of a Tau gun line and going second. My longest weapons on the list I am running are 36", but they're only str 5. Everything else is 30" and below. The list was Buffmander, Crisis Blob, 2 deep striking crisis suits, 2 HYMP/ Plasma Rifle Broadsides, 4 tetras, and 3 Riptides in a Riptide wing. 1650 point game.

I luckily haven't had this come up with a friend yet. There's one guy I haven't seen at the LGS for about 8 months (luckily) who is the only opponent I started declining games. Real bad winner, calling me out on rules (vehemently and loudly) then being proven wrong, tailored lists with proxies (identical bolter marines having different loadouts squad to squad and I could be wrong but I swear some of his "heavy weapons" would conveniently change places for LOS *wink wink*), and then like bragging to people about his wins (he literally walked up to a guild ball game I was hanging out and watching and asked those two total strangers if I had told them about how he beat me two weeks before). So when he would ask me if I had my 40k stuff with me, I would tell him yes, and then when he would ask for a game, I would tell him no - I probably should have told him why, but just didn't care enough to have the conversation when it wasn't going to change my mind or affect what I do anyway.

For the guy you're describing, I'm not sure how I'd react. It's a weird mental-gymnastics type of thing where he thinks a free 500 points worth of vehicles is okay, but killing things he deliberately placed in range to be killed is not. You definitely did the right thing in trying to explain what he could have done to mitigate the outcome, and his reaction sounds extremely poor.

If he's a friend, I'd try to talk it out. I don't really know what you mean when you say "gaming circle" as I assume that can be different for different people - a group of friends, a general group of gamers that communicate with each other, or simply just regulars that you see at the store most commonly. If it's the second or the third, I would just let it go and stop playing the guy - you tried to do what you could, but his reaction means it won't stop and it will continue to hurt your enjoyment of the game when you play against him, and if he's not your friend, it's not worth it, whether or not he's decent outside the game. That makes it sad, but doesn't change who he is when he plays, or how he views what you enjoy about the game.

If I'm playing against "That Guy" I will shift gears into a beat them down mode. I like to play that way now and again, and I don't want to "inflict" that on someone that's in it for a loose, non-competitive time.

If I'm playing against "That Guy" that only wants to play a deliberately weak, pathetic "fluff" list, and then starts complaining about my middle-of-the road list, I'll shift to a softer, theatrical approach. I don't want to inflict that on someone that wants to WIN! Sometimes that's fun too.

I enjoy several styles of 40k, depending on my mood and opponent. Since I want to have fun, I tend to tailor my gameplay to my opponent.


I still want to win, but I don't feel the need to crush someone. Usually. Communication with your opponent is key. If you're not enjoying your game, let your opponent know. Tell them that nit-picking over 1/16th of an inch in the movement phase is making it hard to have fun. Let them know when they're deploying, that moving within 12" of your guns is going to leave them hurting... fair warning is all. Not telling them how to play the game. If they do anyway, and then start complaining, remind them that you warned them, and then let them know they can always change tactics for the next game. Showing someone how to play "stronger" is always going to go down easier than explaining that your army isn't "OP".

And finally, if you can't bear the complaints, tell them. I have a co-worker that has a habit of complaining about basically everything. He once complained to me about working outside on a nice, sunny day when the weekend was supposed to be rainy. I had to look at him, and say, "Why not appreciate that you aren't being rained on right now?" He said, "Yeah, but the weekend..." and I said, "Look, worry about the weekend then. Working with constant negativity drains me, and makes my day worse." He said he just "Needed to vent" and he should be allowed to do that. I responded he's welcome to vent, but if I don't want him to vent at me, he's got to vent somewhere else. I shouldn't have to have my day ruined because he's upset about *whatever*.

Point being, that now, whenever he gets too "dumpy" I tell him to cram it, in varying degrees of niceness, and he does. My day rolls on better.

Never mind outflanking or Tau shooting - if you're going second then using your scout move to get as close to the enemy as possible is just a terrible idea in the vast majority of circumstances.

You have a few options when playing against people like this.

Don't play: Already covered

Keep playing him, but use him as the base for some really funny stories to tell others

(my personal favorite) Find new and creative ways to beat him. Each time you play him, try something new. If you have multiple armies, swap them out, if not then try different varients with your Tau to beat him. I'm willing to bet, this guy is fairly predictable in what he's going to field. So build your army around beating that. I will admit that this method really does only work best if you have multiple armies to throw at them, persoanlly I am sitting on about 10 different armies, so I'm able to play multiple options when I come across people like that.

Ravingbantha wrote:

(my personal favorite) Find new and creative ways to beat him. Each time you play him, try something new. If you have multiple armies, swap them out, if not then try different varients with your Tau to beat him. I'm willing to bet, this guy is fairly predictable in what he's going to field. So build your army around beating that. I will admit that this method really does only work best if you have multiple armies to throw at them, persoanlly I am sitting on about 10 different armies, so I'm able to play multiple options when I come across people like that.

To what end?

You'll just end up being that guy who drove a struggling player out of the hobby.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

(my personal favorite) Find new and creative ways to beat him. Each time you play him, try something new. If you have multiple armies, swap them out, if not then try different varients with your Tau to beat him. I'm willing to bet, this guy is fairly predictable in what he's going to field. So build your army around beating that. I will admit that this method really does only work best if you have multiple armies to throw at them, persoanlly I am sitting on about 10 different armies, so I'm able to play multiple options when I come across people like that.

To what end?

You'll just end up being that guy who drove a struggling player out of the hobby.

He's got ten armies, he's clearly superior to others.

I have a couple guys (out of 20 or so) at my store that are like that. They all either play Eldar or Space Wolves, think that their cheese should be the only cheese allowed, "forget" rules, and get really angry if I do something good in the game. I don't even have to win, if I do something as little as wiping one of their squads they either complain or swear (a lot), or the one guy actually goes to the next room and won't come out to continue the game, either for 10 minutes or not at all.

Example with that last guy: tells me he needs tournament practice, I tell him I'll bring the most competitive stuff I have. He brought a SW list of mostly TWC, I brought a black knight/Azrael/psyker deathstar. He only had a single unit coming in with drop pods, I had popped shroud so I had a 2+++ rerollable. He didn't kill a single model, I wiped the whole squad (8 tacs plus two characters) on my turn. He starts with bleeps and insults, I told him "if you're going to bring podded stuff a single pod will get wiped, they're the only thing I had in ideal range." Just walks away from the table to the next room, I didn't follow but someone came out and said "what did you do? He's in there saying you're cheating and he's done playing". This didn't bother me, as everyone knows I have most of the rulebook memorized and that I'm not the type that'd openly cheat, but I was annoyed about him quitting. I scoop up all my models and start putting them back in their case, he comes out about 15 minutes later and asks why I'm "giving up".

I explained what happened to everyone after he left a little while later, they expected that's what had happened, but for the following month every time I had a game and he was around he'd tell my opponent not to play me, that all I do is cheat and bring cheese. Obviously no one believed him (most of those games I was running a DW list), but as a result I never play him anymore. The only people he can get games with are the other TFGs at this point because everyone's kind of mad at him for the way he treated me (one of our most casual, friendly players) but he still gets enough games that his ways haven't changed.

As everyone else has said, I just don't play people like that anymore. I run into them in our events (he dropped out of an event because my casual DW list still beat him) but that's the only time I'll play them. I try to only ask people I like for a game, and he usually won't ask me for a game, but when the matter does come up I usually say "I'm not going to play you if it's a repeat of our last game. I don't want to play someone that quits halfway through because something bad happened, and I don't like the way you treat people you play."

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Yes and no. Outflanking would have helped, because he can now come in on the sides and ideally get right at the guys back line. The downside is, he leaves 1 or 2 units on the board, and if those die, he auto-loses before Turn 2. Also, he's at the whim of Reserve rolls for when his reinforcements come in.

It's a risky move, but a lot less risky than moving them all within 12" of a Tau gun line and going second. My longest weapons on the list I am running are 36", but they're only str 5. Everything else is 30" and below. The list was Buffmander, Crisis Blob, 2 deep striking crisis suits, 2 HYMP/ Plasma Rifle Broadsides, 4 tetras, and 3 Riptides in a Riptide wing. 1650 point game.

That's a strong list, but not impossible. Honestly, he just made a bad decision. He should have used his Scout moves (if available) to move away/hide from your guns. Admittedly, going second against Tau does hurt a lot.

Some people are not successful in life so winning at games becomes really important because it means they Arnt total losers, so when you win against them in rocks this reality that they are awesome at something.

It's not worth getting angry at them they lack the social skills to realize what they did wrong, just refuse them games and play more mature gamers.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

(my personal favorite) Find new and creative ways to beat him. Each time you play him, try something new. If you have multiple armies, swap them out, if not then try different varients with your Tau to beat him. I'm willing to bet, this guy is fairly predictable in what he's going to field. So build your army around beating that. I will admit that this method really does only work best if you have multiple armies to throw at them, persoanlly I am sitting on about 10 different armies, so I'm able to play multiple options when I come across people like that.

To what end?

You'll just end up being that guy who drove a struggling player out of the hobby.

He's got ten armies, he's clearly superior to others.

Both of you clearly missed this point of the discussion and took my reply completely out of context. This wasn't about how do you deal with a new 'struggling' player, it was asking how you deal with pricks who constantly complain about everything but their army being cheesy. But go ahead and take more of my comments out of perspective.

Ravingbantha wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

(my personal favorite) Find new and creative ways to beat him. Each time you play him, try something new. If you have multiple armies, swap them out, if not then try different varients with your Tau to beat him. I'm willing to bet, this guy is fairly predictable in what he's going to field. So build your army around beating that. I will admit that this method really does only work best if you have multiple armies to throw at them, persoanlly I am sitting on about 10 different armies, so I'm able to play multiple options when I come across people like that.

To what end?

You'll just end up being that guy who drove a struggling player out of the hobby.

He's got ten armies, he's clearly superior to others.

Both of you clearly missed this point of the discussion and took my reply completely out of context. This wasn't about how do you deal with a new 'struggling' player, it was asking how you deal with pricks who constantly complain about everything but their army being cheesy. But go ahead and take more of my comments out of perspective.

He's neither new nor struggling. He's got over "20,000" points of Space Marines, all painted the same color scheme. However, he uses not even 3rd party models and will rotate Codexes depending on how he's feeling. I've seen him use Space Wolves, Deathwatch, and Vanilla on a regular basis. He's a really nice guy, until he starts losing. Then the "Bust out the calibrated micrometer to find out if this is a 7" or 8" charge, and did you actually get to the full 8" or are you actually 7.99998" away".

There are 5 of us that show up to game on a regular basis, 6 if you include "Mike". We all play top tier armies, so It's hard for me to turn down games because I get one night a week. And like I keep saying, he;s generally a good person. Just wanted to get some outside opinions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Yes and no. Outflanking would have helped, because he can now come in on the sides and ideally get right at the guys back line. The downside is, he leaves 1 or 2 units on the board, and if those die, he auto-loses before Turn 2. Also, he's at the whim of Reserve rolls for when his reinforcements come in.

It's a risky move, but a lot less risky than moving them all within 12" of a Tau gun line and going second. My longest weapons on the list I am running are 36", but they're only str 5. Everything else is 30" and below. The list was Buffmander, Crisis Blob, 2 deep striking crisis suits, 2 HYMP/ Plasma Rifle Broadsides, 4 tetras, and 3 Riptides in a Riptide wing. 1650 point game.

That's a strong list, but not impossible. Honestly, he just made a bad decision. He should have used his Scout moves (if available) to move away/hide from your guns. Admittedly, going second against Tau does hurt a lot.

It does work, that's for sure. Especially when I don't even have to move to get into rapid fire range.

If you have followed any of the Timmy threads then you will know of my own experiences with one.

My favourite solution is to continually change things up and beat him with new and creative lists, as Ravingbantha has also suggested. Introducing new units and wargear, experimenting and generally throwing him completely are all fun. However if this is morally or financially beyond you then I suggest just not playing against him until he grows up.

Simple, bring an Astartes based list which rolfstomps him. If he kicks off then it is Dread Sock time.

Become a cannibal

If there is a TFG locally, I haven't met him. I would simply refuse to play against him, and tactically ignore him.