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There have been some threads about this but most of them ended up with not much being resolved. I figured I'd give it a shot as it would be nice to know how Cult Ambush is played properly. I'd appreciate if only people with solid rules knowledge chimed in (this is not meant to be discriminating, but people responding/correcting basic rules errors often leads to the thread derailing.) Some familiarity with the issue would also be good.

Listed here as clearly as possible are the parts I have questions about, please quote them separately or with numbers so we can stay coherent:


1. "Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."

Question: "...during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy." Does this mean the army deploys on the GSC players first game turn instead of the deployment sub-phase, since deployment doesn't happen during a turn? However, the sentence also implies they deploy during a turn; "of the turn they deploy" - paradoxical, how is this supposed to be interpreted? Is the term "deploy" used to mean something else than deployment in this case?


2. " Units that Infiltrate or arrive from reserves can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally."

Question: Is Cult Ambush Infiltrating? To me it seems it is not, since the sentence says "instead of deploying" - infiltration happens during the deployment phase. Infiltration cannot occur outside the deployment phase ruleswise. Also the wording on point 1 seems to indicate Cult Ambush does not happen in the deployment phase; "of the turn they deploy." If this sentence is supposed to mean "instead of deploying normally" then again there's a hiccup: Infiltrate is a part of Standard Deployment Method (does deploying normally mean this?)


3. If a Cult Ambushing GSC unit counts as Infiltrating and is instead deployed in the deployment phase (since Infiltrate is only ever used in that phase, and to count as Infiltrating the rule must have been used) it is then allowed to move on it's first game turn. They are not allowed to move on the movement phase of the turn they are deployed.

If they were set up during the deployment sub-phase, and as such count as Infiltrating, then they are allowed to move. The movement forbidding sentence doesn't apply to the deployment sub-phase; it applies to the turn they are deployed in. So either the unit counts as Infiltrating and is allowed to move on the first turn (not being deployed during it, but before, in the deployment sub-phase) or it doesn't count as Infiltrating, and instead is placed on the first game turn. Again, Infiltration cannot take place outside the deployment sub-phase, and a unit cannot "counts as infiltrating for the purposes of X but not for the purposes of Z" - it's either this or that.


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This leads me to believe, due to the wording on the rules, that Cult Ambush takes place on the GSC players first game turn. Let's say you're facing an Astra Militarum -army with some Infiltrators. You get first turn. You declare your whole army is using Cult Ambush, and place nothing on the table. The AM player deploys, including his Infiltrators. Your first turn begins, you set up your Cult Ambushing units and start playing. You are not allowed to move on the turn you deployed, as indicated by the rule of Cult Ambush.

The sentence "cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield." - doesn't have any meaning to it's existence if the deployment doesn't take place during a turn. Why would a sentence like this be included, if it means nothing?

Pretty confusing all in all. How is this supposed to be played, or shall we just wait for a FAQ?

Lotsa edits to be precise with the wordings. -R

1) you focused mainly on the "of the turn" part, but the sentence starts with: "Unless otherwise specified", so this means you can set them up with cult ambush during deployemend, but only if the unit has infiltrate.

2) this one is tricky, because what part does cult ambush replace, is it the entire rule or just the placement on the table. If its the first its not infiltrate otherwise it is.

3) see the first question

terry wrote:
1) you focused mainly on the "of the turn" part, but the sentence starts with: "Unless otherwise specified", so this means you can set them up with cult ambush during deployemend, but only if the unit has infiltrate.

So do you mean that if a unit has Infiltrate, the GSC player could choose to use Cult Ambush in the Deployment sub-phase OR at the start of his first game turn? Using the Detachment of Formations gives all foot units Infiltrate.

Here are the following things that I think occur, as a sidenote:

-If set up in the deployment sub-phase, it could be argued that the units count as Infiltrating. However, they are allowed to move on the first game turn (as the rule only prevents moving on the same turn the unit has deployed.)

-If set up on the first game turn, the unit cannot count as Infiltrating ruleswise (afaik) since infiltration cannot occur outside the deployment sub-phase. The Infiltrate USR is simply not usable outside deployment and Cult Ambush doesn't change it so either, and isn't even specified of doing so anywhere. This means that items like the Long Range Sweep of Elysians or Servo-skulls have no effect on such a unit.

 Runic wrote:

terry wrote:
1) you focused mainly on the "of the turn" part, but the sentence starts with: "Unless otherwise specified", so this means you can set them up with cult ambush during deployemend, but only if the unit has infiltrate.

So do you mean that if a unit has Infiltrate, the GSC player could choose to use Cult Ambush in the Deployment sub-phase OR at the start of his first game turn? Using the Detachment of Formations gives all foot units Infiltrate.

Here are the following things that I think occur, as a sidenote:

-If set up in the deployment sub-phase, it could be argued that the units count as Infiltrating. However, they are allowed to move on the first game turn (as the rule only prevents moving on the same turn the unit has deployed.)

-If set up on the first game turn, the unit cannot count as Infiltrating ruleswise (afaik) since infiltration cannot occur outside the deployment sub-phase. The Infiltrate USR is simply not usable outside deployment and Cult Ambush doesn't change it so either, and isn't even specified of doing so anywhere. This means that items like the Long Range Sweep of Elysians or Servo-skulls have no effect on such a unit.

I mean that they are setup during infiltrate, so then its only the question is the instead part in point 2 of your original post. What part does cult ambush replace

terry wrote:

I mean that they are setup during infiltrate, so then its only the question is the instead part in point 2 of your original post. What part does cult ambush replace

Not sure I follow in the sense that one of the rules talks about the unit being deployed at the start of a game turn. Which is a completely separate thing from the actual deployment sub-phase, inwhich Infiltrate takes place.

 Runic wrote:

terry wrote:

I mean that they are setup during infiltrate, so then its only the question is the instead part in point 2 of your original post. What part does cult ambush replace

Not sure I follow in the sense that one of the rules talks about the unit being deployed at the start of a game turn. Which is a completely separate thing from the actual deployment sub-phase, inwhich Infiltrate takes place.

So you set the units up durring the infiltrate phase of the deployment phase. But if it counts as infiltrations depends on the instead

For what it's worth I've talked this over with my gaming group, local GW manager, friends, family, and priest! All before I played my first game with the GSC to make sure I didn't piss everyone off.

It seemed to us as that cult ambush was done during deployment as it would completely invalidate the roll off for turns, seize the initiative, and any risk associated with an aggressive deployment. Also, I play them as being unable to move on my first turn after deployment because that's the way it "feels" like it should be.

If you watch the Warhammer TV battle report of GSC vs Ultramarines you'll see the deployment method (during deployment) that they use in a sanctioned GW game, so that ought to give you an indication

It doesn't have to be during deployment - the Cult Ambush rules cover both coming on during deployment and for any of the CA units placed in Reserves. The ones in Reserves definitely do not come out of Reserves during deployment, but during one of the game turns.

 doctortom wrote:
It doesn't have to be during deployment - the Cult Ambush rules cover both coming on during deployment and for any of the CA units placed in Reserves. The ones in Reserves definitely do not come out of Reserves during deployment, but during one of the game turns.

Yes, this much I know. The issue here is the unclear rules on how the "non-reserves" part is to be played.

AwesomeSauceGaming wrote:
If you watch the Warhammer TV battle report of GSC vs Ultramarines you'll see the deployment method (during deployment) that they use in a sanctioned GW game, so that ought to give you an indication

I guess its some kind of indicator, however in their last competitive stream of 1500 points the White Scars army, according to the armylists published was 1540 points. The Eldar Combined Arms Detachment was comprised of 3x Warp Spiders. And in the Space Wolves game, Grey Hunters charged on the turn they disembarked from a Rhino. Also in a battlereport recently, an autocannon glanced/penetrated a Land Raider. The last one was just told to me, didn't see it myself but I find it plausible all things considered. Would indicate someone at GW was playing with rules from 1-2 editions ago (or when was it that Autocannons had Rending?) Was a Baneblade and they had mentioned co-axial weapon support, also a rule not present in the current edition.

Currently to me it seems there are 2 bits in the rules that indicate outside deployment-sub-phase deployment, and one ruling that indicates Infiltration. Too bad these both cancel eachother out so I guess a real conclusion can't be drawn...

From the FAQ
Q: If a unit has Infiltrate and is using Cult Ambush to deploy,
it’s not using Infiltrate as such. Does this mean it can charge in the first turn?
A: No.

From the codex:
"Unlike other units that Infiltrate or arrive from Reserves, the ambushing unit can charge in their first turn or on the turn they arrive from Reserves."

OK, so when or how does a unit with Cult Ambush Infiltrate and assault on the first turn? The rule from the codex implies that you have to be using Cult Ambush to do it, ie 'the ambushing unit' but the FAQ says if they are using Cult Ambush then they cannot do it... Any suggestions?

Send in the question to GW and see how they explain it? Maybe they'll change their answer or at least tell you how it's supposed to work.

As it is, it seems like another one of those Battle Brothers reversals. Maybe after the book got out they didn't like all those turn 1 charges by cultists.

That question appears to be asking if you can charge on Turn 1 using the other options for Cult Ambush than a roll of a 6.

Fragile wrote:
That question appears to be asking if you can charge on Turn 1 using the other options for Cult Ambush than a roll of a 6.

Not sure how you get that. Where does it say anything about rolling a 6 or any other number?

 don_mondo wrote:

Fragile wrote:
That question appears to be asking if you can charge on Turn 1 using the other options for Cult Ambush than a roll of a 6.

Not sure how you get that. Where does it say anything about rolling a 6 or any other number?

The FAQ question seems to be asking that since Cult Ambush is not Infiltrate, there is nothing preventing every unit that used CA to assault first turn. The FAQ clarifies that any number rolled for CA other than a 6 cannot charge first turn.

Fragile wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

Fragile wrote:
That question appears to be asking if you can charge on Turn 1 using the other options for Cult Ambush than a roll of a 6.

Not sure how you get that. Where does it say anything about rolling a 6 or any other number?

The FAQ question seems to be asking that since Cult Ambush is not Infiltrate, there is nothing preventing every unit that used CA to assault first turn. The FAQ clarifies that any number rolled for CA other than a 6 cannot charge first turn.

Again I ask, where does it say anything about rolling a 6?

Your going to have to clarify your question, because its quite clear how the rule and that FAQ interact.

OK, I get that the accepted understanding of the rule, I'm assuming based on the location of the line allowing it, is that the "may charge on first turn" bit only applies to when you roll a 6, even tho it's written so as to include all the results (otherwise, why mention coming in from Reserves...?).

So, the FAQ merely states, hey, if you use Cult Ambush to deploy, you cannot assault on the first turn. Period.

Q: If a unit has Infiltrate and is using Cult Ambush to deploy,
it’s not using Infiltrate as such. Does this mean it can charge in the first turn?
A: No.

The FAQ has no exception mentioned for "unless you rolled a 6". As written, it applies to any result. I mean, "No." is a fairly straightforward answer. So in that FAQ, show me where it says or even implies that a result of 6 is exempt from this FAQ.

Does that clarify my question...?

You are correct that the FAQ's one-word answer is not a great answer. One-word answers are really only perfectly clear when the question is perfectly clear. However, a common question put forth during the FAQ wait was whether or not Genestealer Cult units could charge even without needing to roll a 6. The idea was that it's not actually using Infiltrate, so is not restricted by Infiltrate's rule that disallows charging on the first turn. This FAQ clears up that rolling a result of 1 through 5 on Cult Ambush does not allow you to charge when using Cult Ambush instead of Infiltrating. Combined with the Servo Skull FAQ it seems that the intention of the rule is for Cult Ambush to be an "upgraded" Infiltrate, rather than to replace Infiltrate. However, the result of 6 on Cult Ambush gives you express permission to charge right away.

What the FAQ really should be saying is "No, unless you roll a 6." or phrase the question "If a unit has Infiltrate and is using Cult Ambush to deploy, it's not using Infiltrate as such. Does this mean it can charge in the first turn even without rolling a 6?".

OK, so (general consensus) GSC units using Cult Ambush can perform a first turn assault if they roll a 6.

What about the bit about being able to assault when coming in from Reserves? Still limited to a unit that rolled a 6? And does it apply to ongoing Reserves?

 don_mondo wrote:
OK, so (general consensus) GSC units using Cult Ambush can perform a first turn assault if they roll a 6.

What about the bit about being able to assault when coming in from Reserves? Still limited to a unit that rolled a 6? And does it apply to ongoing Reserves?

\

Still limited, yes. Units arriving from Reserves are already naturally limited from assaulting on the turn they arrive on the board. Again, the Cult Ambush table gives explicit permission to ignore this when you roll a 6.