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I had a lengthy and heated discussion a few days ago regarding the effectiveness of Chaos Bikers with the Mark of Nurgle in the use of a Vectorium. I would like to learn what the people here at Dakkadakka think of them. Are Bikers a very effective tool to use against enemies or are they the bane of the Codex and never should be used?

What the heck is a Vectorium?

 CrownAxe wrote:
What the heck is a Vectorium?

That's the Decurion for them. It gives Stealth 18" away from the enemy and allows rerolls of 1 for FNP.

Um, yes. Death Guard makes CSM darn near Necron levels of good. The fact that DG Bikers have T6 & FNP makes them one of the best units CSM have

With all the DG bonuses Nurgle Bikes certainly are good and durable but I think they lack the weapon options to make them threatening

The bikes, like everything Nurgle is hard to put down, but doesent have the same damage output to win either.

Ofcourse, for us that have been already using Nurgle, things just got even better.

I fall into the bike trap since its too good to really not bring to the table, but more often than not I get better performance out of Spawn. I bring a unit of 5 with 2 Meltas and a Combi, and lucky spawn have taken out more vehicles than the bikes have ever got a chance to shoot.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The bikes, like everything Nurgle is hard to put down, but doesent have the same damage output to win either.

Ofcourse, for us that have been already using Nurgle, things just got even better.

I fall into the bike trap since its too good to really not bring to the table, but more often than not I get better performance out of Spawn. I bring a unit of 5 with 2 Meltas and a Combi, and lucky spawn have taken out more vehicles than the bikes have ever got a chance to shoot.

For me it's exactly the other way round So far I don't understand the hype about spawn, they never killed anything really, while bikes can at least shoot something and then have their mediocre CC attacks. Also they have a champion with CC options which the spawns lack. However, both of them are actually just good transport options for your lord, who will do the real killing.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The bikes, like everything Nurgle is hard to put down, but doesent have the same damage output to win either.

Ofcourse, for us that have been already using Nurgle, things just got even better.

I fall into the bike trap since its too good to really not bring to the table, but more often than not I get better performance out of Spawn. I bring a unit of 5 with 2 Meltas and a Combi, and lucky spawn have taken out more vehicles than the bikes have ever got a chance to shoot.

For me it's exactly the other way round So far I don't understand the hype about spawn, they never killed anything really, while bikes can at least shoot something and then have their mediocre CC attacks. Also they have a champion with CC options which the spawns lack. However, both of them are actually just good transport options for your lord, who will do the real killing.

Nurgle Spawn aren't a solo unit. They are there to be cheap T6 wounds for the Nurgle Chaos Lord who is smashing face

Well, I totally use my spawn as solo units! Sure, i take 3-4 In a group for Lord delivery (freeing bikes to target something else) but I would also run several solo Spawns, and now its even easier to do so! I run 8 to 10 spawn in every Chaos list and these guys are the bane of everyone at my LGS.

A Solo spawn can hold just the right objective at just the right time, or eat up overwatch, hold a unit to counter charge with something beefier, block unwanted assaults, charge shooty units and tarpit them, and with str 5 and a good random attack roll they can usually get a few HPs off vehicles in CC.

My personal favorite thing to do is throw a Spawn at whatever dedicated CC unit my opponent has. Any AP2 or 3 fanciness is just wasted on quivvering blobs of fetid meat.

Are Chaos Spawn really that useful? I've heard of Nurgle players spamming enemy units with hordes of Plague Zombies but not spawn surely.

 Skoroxus wrote:
Are Chaos Spawn really that useful? I've heard of Nurgle players spamming enemy units with hordes of Plague Zombies but not spawn surely.

They are a ton of T6 fearless wounds that run across the table and shoving S5 attacks in people's faces. Certainly useful

I find nurgle bikers to be a great threat unit. They look and sound scary to people so they throw lots of attention at them. I have seen them soak up hundreds of points worth of shooting and still come out alive.

 Skoroxus wrote:
Are Chaos Spawn really that useful? I've heard of Nurgle players spamming enemy units with hordes of Plague Zombies but not spawn surely.

Nurgle spawns, especially the Death Guards ones are great fighting against Loyalist Marines. Bolters and grav do gak against T6 Sv-, 3 wounds models, especially when you have 3 squads of 5 of them. Lascannons, plasma weapons, meltas, and even Demolisher Cannons and Orbital Bombardments are very few in numbers and can only knock off one of those wounds each shots, and you still get FnP against those.

The only thing you need to look out against, are Sternguards with Imperial Fist CT, by my maths a 10men IF sternguard (costing 220pts minimun) is the only marine unit that can wipe a 5 strong Death Guard Nurgle Spawns (cost only 180pts) in one turn of shooting, followed by overwatch (being charged) and the ensuing close combat attacks. AND that is supposing the Spawns were always in the open ground. In any other scenario or for any other marine infantry / bike units, including other CT's sternguards, or if there exists any (even slight) covers for spawns, the spawns are surely unstopable and the loyalist marines can only sit duck and being eaten alive.

Unfortunately Spawn don't get FNP

For the Nurgle Death Guard bikers, I think they are good fire platforms, with 2 meltas or plasmas. They should be able to survive the small-to-mid arms fire with T6, 3+ and FnP, and do their shooting.
However, against anything AP2/3, they are less durable than spawns due to only having one wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unfortunately Spawn don't get FNP

Really? Isn't all units with mark of Nurgle in a Deathguard detachment all have FnP.
I don't have the "Traitors legion" supplement so I maybe wrong.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
For the Nurgle Death Guard bikers, I think they are good fire platforms, with 2 meltas or plasmas. They should be able to survive the small-to-mid arms fire with T6, 3+ and FnP, and do their shooting.
However, against anything AP2/3, they are less durable than spawns due to only having one wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unfortunately Spawn don't get FNP

Really? Isn't all units with mark of Nurgle in a Deathguard detachment all have FnP.
I don't have the "Traitors legion" supplement so I maybe wrong.

Only those with VotLW

Granted, FNP is really something Spawn should have default but whatever.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
For the Nurgle Death Guard bikers, I think they are good fire platforms, with 2 meltas or plasmas. They should be able to survive the small-to-mid arms fire with T6, 3+ and FnP, and do their shooting.
However, against anything AP2/3, they are less durable than spawns due to only having one wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unfortunately Spawn don't get FNP

Really? Isn't all units with mark of Nurgle in a Deathguard detachment all have FnP.
I don't have the "Traitors legion" supplement so I maybe wrong.

Only those with VotLW

Thanks for clarify.
That make the spawn not so over powerful.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
For the Nurgle Death Guard bikers, I think they are good fire platforms, with 2 meltas or plasmas. They should be able to survive the small-to-mid arms fire with T6, 3+ and FnP, and do their shooting.
However, against anything AP2/3, they are less durable than spawns due to only having one wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Unfortunately Spawn don't get FNP

Really? Isn't all units with mark of Nurgle in a Deathguard detachment all have FnP.
I don't have the "Traitors legion" supplement so I maybe wrong.

Only those with VotLW

I don't have my book with me right now, but I was fairly certain that in the wording for Death Guard rules, it states units with a Mark of Nurgle get the FnP and maybe one of the other bonuses (Fearless/Relentless, neither that matter to a Chaos Spawn).

Even so, the Bikers are still worth it simply because of the Warband; they're the most durable thing in their slot, move fast, and with Plasma and a PF stand a good chance at hurting almost everything, making them quite reliable. Heck, even with Stealth at 18"+, you let them jink for a 3+ cover save against AP2/3 which is sweet.

Spawn do better against Grav
Bikers do better against D, Force weapons, Stomps and Instant death

Bikers are super hard countered by ignores cover grav though (centurion star) so big squads of them are a perhaps a bad idea (not to mention the dangerous terrain tests).

I think min squads of 3 with 2 melta guns is probably the way to field them while a max unit of nurgle spawn work better for the PF+LC bike lord.

Death Guard spawn don't get fnp, it's VOTLW only. But if they are in the vectorium detachment, and manage to get fnp from some other source, then they can reroll 1's.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Death Guard spawn don't get fnp, it's VOTLW only. But if they are in the vectorium detachment, and manage to get fnp from some other source, then they can reroll 1's.

So, I'd say keep the Spawn minimal in DG unless you're going with a Chaos Lord escort or some type of Sorc/Spawn deathstar.

On the topic of Bikes being good, I'd say in the Warband, they're the kings of their slot for DG with little exception for other things (Deep Striking Raptors).

I plan on running 5 Nurgle Spawn, and 5 Nurgle Bikers with 2 Melta and combi-Meta.

Which would you suggest to include a Nurgle Lord on a bike with fist/claw and brand combo, and 5+ inv?

If I put him in the spawn, then they will dish out some shooting on the way in, and be solid in combat.

If I put him in the bikes, his burning brand shooting will be wasted on whatever the bike's melta shoot at, but it gives them some closed combat punch, when they have very little without him.

Thanks!

The bikes alwas have the cover save. And it is improved on the detachment.

in any case think that both are good, each one vs different kind of units.


And sadly no, DG spawns are not better than a regular nurgle spaw........to bad

I think Bikers in the detachment are better overall units, and I think 3 squads of 5 would be a great core to build around. But Spawn are kings of MSU as auxiliaries and have their own uses.

I'd expect a list looking like this to preform quite well.

Lord on Bike
3 Terminators
3x 5 Bikers
3x Havocs
2x CSM

2 Helldrakes

Dump all leftover points into solo Spawn

Why not have both? If you go for bikers only, than a white scar centstar one-shots you. If you go for spawns only than dark eldar poison brings more trouble and you have fewer ranged weapons. Both are good. Why not use bikes AND spawns? Not that they're overly expensive.

Easy fix...Spawn on bikes! xDD

In any case also something that help them a lot is the psi power that gives +1T... Bikes with T7 , stealth and FNP is fun. Maybe dont kill much...but could eat lot of firepower xD

Masutaman wrote:
I plan on running 5 Nurgle Spawn, and 5 Nurgle Bikers with 2 Melta and combi-Meta.

Which would you suggest to include a Nurgle Lord on a bike with fist/claw and brand combo, and 5+ inv?

If I put him in the spawn, then they will dish out some shooting on the way in, and be solid in combat.

If I put him in the bikes, his burning brand shooting will be wasted on whatever the bike's melta shoot at, but it gives them some closed combat punch, when they have very little without him.

Thanks!

If you're planning on bringing both, then like the above post's said, just vary it by list. Lots of Grav threat? Roll with the Spawn. No Grav? Head out with the Bikers. You can even keep them fairly close and hop the Lord between the units as they take casualties and the battlefield changes. No sense in feeling locked into a unit.