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I was recently reading up on this match-up from the Eldar's perspective and it seems everything I can find is a little old. Some of the tactics no longer work either, such as using Swooping Hawks to mass Haywire Grenades Knights down.

So, Eldar players of Dakka, what would you do against a 5-Knight list? Feel free to reference the whole Codex. My first thought was Fire Dragons, but there's no real way to get them close to the Knights effectively. Wave Serpents seem like they'll go up in smoke rather fast. We can't use DE Webways to drop them in anymore either due to the FAQ.

My own terrible musings aside, what's your approach when facing such a list?

Audustum wrote:
I was recently reading up on this match-up from the Eldar's perspective and it seems everything I can find is a little old. Some of the tactics no longer work either, such as using Swooping Hawks to mass Haywire Grenades Knights down.

So, Eldar players of Dakka, what would you do against a 5-Knight list? Feel free to reference the whole Codex. My first thought was Fire Dragons, but there's no real way to get them close to the Knights effectively. Wave Serpents seem like they'll go up in smoke rather fast. We can't use DE Webways to drop them in anymore either due to the FAQ.

My own terrible musings aside, what's your approach when facing such a list?

Take 4 sword and shield Wraith Knight as Auxiliary and a min Windrider host as core. Do some good position to engage those IK piece meal (i.e. have 2 or more of your WK dealing with one IK at a time.) Granted, Done, problem solved. Your WKs cost 295pts each, his IKs is at least 325pts. His IK has 6 hull points, your WK has 6 wounds. Your WKs can jump over a skyscreper buildings, his IK has to walk around a decent height building. Your WKs have 4 attacks base of StrD at I5, his IKs has StrD at I4 with AT MOST 4 attacks base. Your WKs have 5++ in close combat, his IKs have nothing in saves in close combat. Your StrD (on a roll of 2-5) on the IK causing auto penetrating hits that costs D3 hull points, but the penetration itself inflict a damage chart roll, the result of a 6 is another D3 hull points; his StrD (on a roll of 2-5, and you somehow failed the 5++ save) on your WK cause D3 wounds only full stop.

Don't forget you have FnP on top of the invul for WK.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Don't forget you have FnP on top of the invul for WK.

That would only apply for the primary shooting weapons from the Knights, strength D ignores FNP.

Can you use Fire Dragons and a WWP Archon but outside a transport?

Like just perfect Deep Strike a 6 man squad. Might be an idea if allowed.

Wraithknights beat Imperial Knights too lol. D-Cannons or Sword and Shield. If you can do both, then drop the Fire Dragons behind, make them choose a side for the shield, then blast the other side.

Add a Jetseer or two able to support the WK's with psychic powers.

 Grimskul wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Don't forget you have FnP on top of the invul for WK.

That would only apply for the primary shooting weapons from the Knights, strength D ignores FNP.

It's still nothing to sniff at if your opponant roles up with a gatling cannon gunline.

These are great ideas! Bringing multiple Wraithknights does seem to be the most effective option, but what if we're in a tournament setting? Most allow you to take only 1 Wraithknight, but allow squads of 5 Knights. I'm not sure 1 alone could carry that much.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Don't forget you have FnP on top of the invul for WK.

That would only apply for the primary shooting weapons from the Knights, strength D ignores FNP.

It's still nothing to sniff at if your opponant roles up with a gatling cannon gunline.

I actually had that happen once. I was using a Sword and Shield WK against an Admech War Conclave with 2 Crusaders. My WK took a serious beating on turn 1 and barely made it into close combat to hide turn 2.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Can you use Fire Dragons and a WWP Archon but outside a transport?

Like just perfect Deep Strike a 6 man squad. Might be an idea if allowed.

Wraithknights beat Imperial Knights too lol. D-Cannons or Sword and Shield. If you can do both, then drop the Fire Dragons behind, make them choose a side for the shield, then blast the other side.

I don't know how WWP works too well. I thought they had to be coming in from Deep Strike?

Audustum wrote:
I was recently reading up on this match-up from the Eldar's perspective and it seems everything I can find is a little old. Some of the tactics no longer work either, such as using Swooping Hawks to mass Haywire Grenades Knights down.

So, Eldar players of Dakka, what would you do against a 5-Knight list? Feel free to reference the whole Codex. My first thought was Fire Dragons, but there's no real way to get them close to the Knights effectively. Wave Serpents seem like they'll go up in smoke rather fast. We can't use DE Webways to drop them in anymore either due to the FAQ.

My own terrible musings aside, what's your approach when facing such a list?

what has changed about the web way portal from the FAQ? ar eyou refering to the fact you cant start in your battle brothers transport? simply dont use a transport and drop them in.

Besides that tactic which i believe is still 100% legal, D weapons including the D artillery are obviously great against them, scat bikes and warp spiders are still viable to strip down hull points, and if you run a double farseer, try to fish for misfortune in the divination tree (all attacks vs the target rend), so you can just shoot them from the front and still glance.

You could take 3 grav tanks for precision deepstrike and load it with an aspect host of 3 fire dragons. The tanks could shoot at knights while the fire dragons disembark and run to get outside of shield facings.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
You could take 3 grav tanks for precision deepstrike and load it with an aspect host of 3 fire dragons. The tanks could shoot at knights while the fire dragons disembark and run to get outside of shield facings.

i find falcons even in that formation overpriced. The falcons themselves are armed with a pulse lazer and bright lance (so for the squad of 3 were talking 3 bright lance shots, and 6 pulse lazer shots total) . your now talking about 390 points for 3 tanks that really, arnt gonna do that much, and the turn after you drop, i think tis safe to assume if your carrying fire dragons, the tanks will have to be close enough for the fusion guns to work, meaning there is a very high chance a single knight could charge the squadron immediatly, and vehicle squads dont fair well vs imperial knights. If you want to bring vehicles at that points range (and have access to forgeworld), you can bring 5 hornets for 400 points which will be 20 s8 ap2 shots that can outflank and will be at a range that the knights cant charge them, much better. The falcons also take up a large footprint on the table, its not going to be always easy to keep your fire dragons in range depending on scenery level.

I've had success against full IK armies with:

Straight up multiple units of Wraithcannon-Wraith Guards. (especially in the host decuiron, so that they get battlefocus)

Massive squads of Scatbikes (for rear/side shots).

Harlequin squads with Caresses.

Solitarie - he single handily destroyed 3 IK in one of my games.

The biggest tool in the eldar's toolbox is really target priority. Position your army and try to work on one IK at a time...

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
You could take 3 grav tanks for precision deepstrike and load it with an aspect host of 3 fire dragons. The tanks could shoot at knights while the fire dragons disembark and run to get outside of shield facings.

i find falcons even in that formation overpriced. The falcons themselves are armed with a pulse lazer and bright lance (so for the squad of 3 were talking 3 bright lance shots, and 6 pulse lazer shots total) . your now talking about 390 points for 3 tanks that really, arnt gonna do that much, and the turn after you drop, i think tis safe to assume if your carrying fire dragons, the tanks will have to be close enough for the fusion guns to work, meaning there is a very high chance a single knight could charge the squadron immediatly, and vehicle squads dont fair well vs imperial knights. If you want to bring vehicles at that points range (and have access to forgeworld), you can bring 5 hornets for 400 points which will be 20 s8 ap2 shots that can outflank and will be at a range that the knights cant charge them, much better. The falcons also take up a large footprint on the table, its not going to be always easy to keep your fire dragons in range depending on scenery level.

I see it as paying more for the precision deepstrike than just about anything else. Any knights that are nearby should be getting killed by the fire dragons that are disembarking so I don't think you'd need to fear the charge too much. I used the tactic with venoms a lot before the faq changes, so yes you're paying more for the grav tank instead but at least it's more accurate and contributes more shots than the venoms used to. Combine the tank's cost with the cost of the fire dragons and you'll see it's still absurd that each unit erases a knight on its own for 2/3 the cost.

The downside for the hornets is that unlike the fire dragons they usually have to get through the 4++ , they won't have the 2 d6 for penning, and they have a worse ap so they get fewer explodes results.

From the knight player's point of view, it's not even fun to play against because of how readily it destroys your army for less points.

So to recap, here are some really good options:

-Multiple WKs - A few Sword & Shield WKs with a Heavy Wraithcannon or Inferno Lance variant mixed in.

-3 Falcons with Lances + Aspect Host of Fire Dragons. This should down at least 3 IKs on the drop, possibly 4

-Take an Allied Detachment with a Webway Portal Archon and cheap 5 Kabalite troop to sit on an objective. Have the Archon join either Dragons or Wraith Guard.
Fun fact: a WWP Archon + 5 Kabalites cost exactly that same as a Serpent with holofields + shuricannon upgrade, but you get where you need to guaranteed and get an ObSec Troop.

Those are my top 3 choices, but Eldar are literally THE best army to deal with IKs

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 Galef wrote:
So to recap, here are some really good options:
............
Those are my top 3 choices, but Eldar are literally THE best army to deal with IKs

-

That is why I never think multiple IK army would create problems to top Xeno army like Eldar or Tau, or Flying Circus Daemons / Chaos Space Marines.

Knights really don't like D of any kind, and Eldar have it in spades. A single buffed Cannon Wraithknight will likely drop 2 at least over the course of the game. How you deal with the other 2-3 depends on your list, deep strike Wrathguard or Dragons can do one in. Spiders and scat bikes can help from the flanks while out maneuvering the last 1-3.

Let's not forget warp hunters, the problem solver for iKnights and GMCs alike.

+1 for Warp Hunters

Wouldn't Wave Serpents + Fire Dragons or Wraithguard with anything Strenght D make Knights cry? Good luck killing a Wave Serpent with Shooting with their shield reduces most pens to glances while it jinks along and unloads its cargo preferably along the split between each facing so it can't shield all the shots (battle focus to the side that isn't shielded and boom, dead knight).

I bring 2 units of 2 hornets with pulse lasers, 2 Warp Hunters, a Lynx, and a Wraithknight with 2 HWC (and two SL) as my anti-tank/Knight units for my tournament list.

You could also use, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Night Spinners, Vaul Support Batteries, and I have even used my scatterbikes to glance them out before, so massed Str 6 can do it.

I have also found Crimson Hunters to be wonderful, and I bet Hemlock Wraithfighters would do ok as well.

Get angles... be everywhere.... and Shoot it down till it's gone.