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Quick question. I know this can't be RAI but I'd like to know if RAW.
We've established that purchasing upgrades goes from top to bottom and that you can't jump around. I know some disagree with this, but that's a topic for another day.

Starting with a Wolves Longfang pack:

Longfang
BP, CS, Grenades, Power armor

1.) Any Longfang may take Items from the Heavy weapons list

Longfang
BP, CS, Grenades, Power Armor, Heavy bolter

2.) Any MODEL may upgrade to a pack leader

Pack Leader
BP, CS, Grenades, Power Armor, Heavy bolter

3.) Pack Leader may upgrade to terminator - replaces BP, CS, Grenades, Power Armor, gaines Power weapon + Storm Bolter

Terminator Pack Leader
Heavy Bolter, Storm bolter, Power weapon

4.) May take items from the Terminator weapons list

Terminator Pack Leader
Heavy Bolter, Storm Shield


At both the pack leader and terminator steps the entry says "May only Take Items from..." but except for the BP, CS and PA, it dosen't have you loose items previously bought.

Have I missed a step or is this Valid?

Firstly we've not established that purchasing upgrades house strictly from top to bottom.

Secondly by taking the heavy bolter you no longer have the bolt pistol required to be swapped as part of the terminator armour option.

Thanks. I did not realize it was replaced.

RAW and RAI aside, I'm not exactly sure WHY you would want to do this. What benefit do you gain by giving a Heavy Bolter to a Pack Leader? He's more expensive, doesn't shoot any better, and... just... WHY?

Because I've got to find a damn use for my DA terminators with plasma cannons. Also having relentless is nice.

Using munchkin-ing you could do a terminator with a special weapon buy buying and trading a meltabomb first... to many points to be worth it though when you can get a combi for 5.

 MattKing wrote:
Because I've got to find a damn use for my DA terminators with plasma cannons. Also having relentless is nice.

Using munchkin-ing you could do a terminator with a special weapon buy buying and trading a meltabomb first... to many points to be worth it though when you can get a combi for 5.

Melta bombs are neither boltgun nor Melee weapon to trade for a special weapon, so that rules that out.

Furthermore the Terminator armour option states, "If Terminator armour is chosen, may only take items from the Terminator Weapons list."

If it were true that options were strictly a top-down exercise this would be a pointless statement, given it comes after the Wolf Guard Pack Leader's option to take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.

We have precedent in the Space Marine draft FAQ that model profile-dependent options must remain valid against the end model profile.

Melta bombs are listed as a mele weapon in the back of the book, and are the second upgrade option for the longfang ancient. the WGPL has the option to get them later but the ancient (which can be upgraded to WGPL) has them first.

 MattKing wrote:
Melta bombs are listed as a mele weapon in the back of the book, and are the second upgrade option for the longfang ancient. the WGPL has the option to get them later but the ancient (which can be upgraded to WGPL) has them first.

Grenades are listed as a separate section from melee weapons in the rulebook (ranged weapons, then melee weapons, then grenades), and melta bombs are listed as a type of grenade.

I miss the Wolf Guard Terminator with Cyclone Missile Launcher and Assault Cannon.

Second Edition Typo, you were actually able to do this and fire both in the same turn.

Mind you, you could also have a 20 strong Would Guard Terminator Squad that could travel over 18 inches a turn (assuming the Rune Priest got the psychic power Gate), not that I ever did this of course *looks innocent*

Right? It used to be so much fun marching waves of Heavy weapon terminators slowly toward the enemy until they ran in terror....

 MattKing wrote:

And yet they have their own separate section in the rulebook, are found under the Special Issue Wargear list elsewhere in the codex and do not even have the Melee rule.

100% true. I'm simply replying to the statement of "they're not melee weapons" by pointing to a list titled: Melee Weapons.

Such are the quirks of GW rule sets.

Evidence to the suggest they are not Melee weapons is substantially more compelling.

... I'm not sure how to respond to that. If you want to make this into a more strict RAI argument you could say that codex rules trump BRB rules and therefore we cannot consider the grenades section. But a list that says Melee weapons - indicating that the following items are to be considered melee weapons - is somewhat compelling of an argument by itself. What makes a heavy flamer a heavy weapon? It doesn't have heavy in the special rules. It's on the heavy weapons list. If we start not trusting the lists the whole system falls apart.

All hail the mighty lists!

GW has stated in the past where summaries and rules contradict, the rules take precedence.

 MattKing wrote:
... I'm not sure how to respond to that. If you want to make this into a more strict RAI argument you could say that codex rules trump BRB rules and therefore we cannot consider the grenades section. But a list that says Melee weapons - indicating that the following items are to be considered melee weapons - is somewhat compelling of an argument by itself. What makes a heavy flamer a heavy weapon? It doesn't have heavy in the special rules. It's on the heavy weapons list. If we start not trusting the lists the whole system falls apart.

All hail the mighty lists!

How would it possibly be a codex trumps BRB issue when the melta bombs themselves are listed in the main rulebook in the grenades section?

EDIT: See Ghaz' post - this has come up before with contradictions between a list and rules themselves.

Because they're listed in the codex on the melee weapons list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look, there's really nowhere this can go.
The arguments are simply: X is on the list of Y therefore X is a type of Y.
Vs: X is on the list of Y but this does not mean X is a type of Y.

Feel free to keep going but I'm bowing out. I'm not a fan of repeating debates.
Besides, My initial question was answered with the first reply.

That's their melee profile for use in melee combat, it doesn't make them a "melee weapon," it makes them usable in combat using that profile. They're still grenades per the rules.