Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had a game recently against Raven wing where Karamazov targeted my Cannoness to lay some hurt down on a bloody 2++ rerollung bike squad. The ensuing debate was wether my opponent got to have their 2++ from this attack. His argument was because it was a shooting attack, he got that cover save. My arguments being that the units were locked in combat and no cover could be taken.

We eventually dice rolled it off and he ended up taking the stupid bloody redonculous save. What are dakkas thoughts on this?

Hi there, I don't really know the rules about Karamazov and all that, but from what I understood, you shot an enemy unit, and he claimed he had a 2++ due to cover and other bonuses, while you say he doesn't have cover as he is locked in combat ?

Because if that is how I understand it, you're not supposed to be able to shoot at a unit locked in combat at all, except from deviating Blast templates.

Being locked in combat doesn't prevent models from taking cover saves. Melee attacks just happen to ignore cover. Cover is just like other saves you get cover saves unless the rules specifies that you don't

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi there, I don't really know the rules about Karamazov and all that, but from what I understood, you shot an enemy unit, and he claimed he had a 2++ due to cover and other bonuses, while you say he doesn't have cover as he is locked in combat ?

Because if that is how I understand it, you're not supposed to be able to shoot at a unit locked in combat at all, except from deviating Blast templates.

Karamazov specifically lets you shoot blasts into combat. If you center it over friendly models, it doesn't even scatter!

But yeah, he'd get a cover save. HOWEVER: He can't jink. You can only jink if you're the target of an attack. The Ravenwing models presumably got their 2++ rerollable from a jink save, but they wouldn't actually have a jink save because they weren't the unit being shot at.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi there, I don't really know the rules about Karamazov and all that, but from what I understood, you shot an enemy unit, and he claimed he had a 2++ due to cover and other bonuses, while you say he doesn't have cover as he is locked in combat ?

Because if that is how I understand it, you're not supposed to be able to shoot at a unit locked in combat at all, except from deviating Blast templates.

Karamazov specifically lets you shoot blasts into combat. If you center it over friendly models, it doesn't even scatter!

But yeah, he'd get a cover save. HOWEVER: He can't jink. You can only jink if you're the target of an attack. The Ravenwing models presumably got their 2++ rerollable from a jink save, but they wouldn't actually have a jink save because they weren't the unit being shot at.

Im pretty sure the BRB FAQ changed that so you can jink in response to if the blast lands on you and not just if the shot targets you

 CrownAxe wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi there, I don't really know the rules about Karamazov and all that, but from what I understood, you shot an enemy unit, and he claimed he had a 2++ due to cover and other bonuses, while you say he doesn't have cover as he is locked in combat ?

Because if that is how I understand it, you're not supposed to be able to shoot at a unit locked in combat at all, except from deviating Blast templates.

Karamazov specifically lets you shoot blasts into combat. If you center it over friendly models, it doesn't even scatter!

But yeah, he'd get a cover save. HOWEVER: He can't jink. You can only jink if you're the target of an attack. The Ravenwing models presumably got their 2++ rerollable from a jink save, but they wouldn't actually have a jink save because they weren't the unit being shot at.

Im pretty sure the BRB FAQ changed that so you can jink in response to if the blast lands on you and not just if the shot targets you

Q: If a blast template scatters onto a Skimmer, can that
Skimmer still Jink even though it was not actually targeted by
the shot?
A: No.

Also:
Q: A beam attack does not target a unit – can you still Jink?
A: No.

So the FAQ made it very clear that you're NOT allowed to Jink.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi there, I don't really know the rules about Karamazov and all that, but from what I understood, you shot an enemy unit, and he claimed he had a 2++ due to cover and other bonuses, while you say he doesn't have cover as he is locked in combat ?

Because if that is how I understand it, you're not supposed to be able to shoot at a unit locked in combat at all, except from deviating Blast templates.

Karamazov specifically lets you shoot blasts into combat. If you center it over friendly models, it doesn't even scatter!

But yeah, he'd get a cover save. HOWEVER: He can't jink. You can only jink if you're the target of an attack. The Ravenwing models presumably got their 2++ rerollable from a jink save, but they wouldn't actually have a jink save because they weren't the unit being shot at.

Im pretty sure the BRB FAQ changed that so you can jink in response to if the blast lands on you and not just if the shot targets you

Q: If a blast template scatters onto a Skimmer, can that
Skimmer still Jink even though it was not actually targeted by
the shot?
A: No.

Also:
Q: A beam attack does not target a unit – can you still Jink?
A: No.

So the FAQ made it very clear that you're NOT allowed to Jink.

Well I guess that changed from the draft

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi there, I don't really know the rules about Karamazov and all that, but from what I understood, you shot an enemy unit, and he claimed he had a 2++ due to cover and other bonuses, while you say he doesn't have cover as he is locked in combat ?

Because if that is how I understand it, you're not supposed to be able to shoot at a unit locked in combat at all, except from deviating Blast templates.

Karamazov specifically lets you shoot blasts into combat. If you center it over friendly models, it doesn't even scatter!

But yeah, he'd get a cover save. HOWEVER: He can't jink. You can only jink if you're the target of an attack. The Ravenwing models presumably got their 2++ rerollable from a jink save, but they wouldn't actually have a jink save because they weren't the unit being shot at.

Okay thanks I never read the rules for Karamazov. That clarifies it for me

Cheers guys. On a slightly related topic; why does Orbital not have barrage included in it for bypassing situational cover saves? It makes no sense for Karamazov to call in an orbital strike, score a direct on a units of guardsmen in cover and then said guardsmen get a cover save because the damage isn't measured from centre of blast from weapon fired from freaking space where it makes sense- but instead taken from Karamazov...wth? Is that a stupid typo because I recall GK captains orbital strike having orbital and barrage