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Hey guys,

So here's the thing -- Over the past few weeks I've been looking at the Blood Angels (also been working on a Successor Chapter myself) and I've come across something rather odd. It is known that all Blood Angels Successor Chapters (whether their Gene-Seed is taken directly or indirectly from the Blood Angels themselves) possess the genetic flaws that facilitate the occurrence of the Black Rage and the Red Thirst. So in other words: Even if any given Chapter does not know the identity of the Chapter that provided their Gene-Stock, then they at least know that they are directly or indirectly descended from the Blood Angels by virtue of possessing the two aforementioned flaws.

Now there is one canon Chapter (the Charnel Guard) who are only suspected of being Blood Angels Successors. It is also a common theme among 'Blood Angels Successor Chapters' on the Fanon I contribute to that a given Chapter is only 'Suspected' of being a direct or indirect Successor of the Blood Angels.

How is this a thing? Even if the Chapter did not know the identity of the exact Chapter that provided their Gene-Stock, would they not at least know they're descended from the Blood Angels? Seems to be a bit of a contradiction to me...

Cheers guys

I don't have IA2 handy to check, but the wording in the Lexicanum entry does not imply the Charnel Guard (or their presumed founders) are themselves unaware of their descent from the Blood Angels, only that neither publicly acknowledges it.

It's a reasonable inference from their background as one of the 'Manus Irae' chapters, who slaughtered billions without question at the High Lords' command, might plausibly explain why the 'civilised' (by 40k standards) Blood Angels want nothing to do with them.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys,

So here's the thing -- Over the past few weeks I've been looking at the Blood Angels (also been working on a Successor Chapter myself) and I've come across something rather odd. It is known that all Blood Angels Successor Chapters (whether their Gene-Seed is taken directly or indirectly from the Blood Angels themselves) possess the genetic flaws that facilitate the occurrence of the Black Rage and the Red Thirst. So in other words: Even if any given Chapter does not know the identity of the Chapter that provided their Gene-Stock, then they at least know that they are directly or indirectly descended from the Blood Angels by virtue of possessing the two aforementioned flaws.

Incorrect. When a chapter is founded, it is given a number of veteran marines from a chapter of its lineage to teach them their ways. However, this is not always the case. A chapter of a different lineage may be assigned or the teachings of those early founders may have been lost or otherwise suppressed. This is the case of what happened with the Carmine Blades aka the Swords of Haldroth.

Imagine a group of children, abandoned in the woods to fend for themselves. And they're able to. They find food, shelter, protection, etc. Completely away from civilization. Now imagine some of those children starting to go through puberty, with no understanding of what puberty was. They might hide it from the others, be seen as outcasts or even a sickness.

A chapter that is unaware of their sanguine lineage would not be open about what they see as a pretty severe and unusual mutation/defect. We know it because we have a god-like view of the setting. But outside of be the Blood Angel successors it's unlikely to be THAT common knowledge. A chapter might scour their own records and the records of any they came across, lest the Inquisition come knocking. The Swords of Haldroth were lucky that it was Astoroth the Grim instead.

The Charnel Guard, by comparison, are simply a very old chapter and so have most likely had all manner of information purges over the centuries. Their membership among the Pentarchy of Blood probably related.

This is one of the key things that can be tricky to get your head around. We are fully aware of these flaws, especially as it is made a staple of their codex's. However, outside the chapter very few would know of these flaws, lest it be considered that they have deviated too far and considered mutants/heretics.

In the second addition of Codex Angels of Death (the BA and DA Codex) it was implied that the reason for this flaw was because the genetic material needed to keep the chapter going was taken from Sanguinius AFTER his death, and those affected see images of his death.

The Horus Heresy books makes it clear that this flaw was a problem before the Horus Heresy and that these visions of his death most likely relate to an earlier incident, or the fact that the Angel was able to see glimpses of the future.

This implies that not even the Blood Angels themselves know the actual truth about the flaw

And ofc, even if it's a purely genetic flaw it might not be quite as obvious to a Chapter that doesn't know or remember it's BA roots. Marines losing control for a moment in the heat of battle could be seen as just something that happens, maybe a flaw in the marine himself or the psycho-indoctrination used to teach initiates. Those going full psycho on the eve of battle, well, same thing maybe?

And the rituals the BA use to suppress or at least identify these occurrences could also mean they have more cases than a Chapter unaware - many cases will go totally unnoticed or the marine will die in glorious battle if no one knows what it is. So these unknown successors might have a reputation for suicidal bravery (or occasional collateral damage) but it's not necessarily obvious to anyone but a Blood Angel or TechPriest specialized in geneseed how or why it is so.

Lots of chapters don't know who they were founded from.

One thing you got to know is that not all Blood Angels successors suffer from the Black Rage. It can simply be corrected by The Mechanicum when founding a new chapter. The BAs and most of their successors see the Black Rage as sort of an inheritance from their Primarch and just sort of live with it.

It could also be a self fulfilling prophecy. By knowing about it, more eventually give into the temptation as they believe on some level there is nothing they can do about it. They fight it and fight it, but at some point they accept that they cant win against it.

A chapter not aware of this may continue to fight it simply because they believe that it can be overcome. They may believe that all space marines of all chapters feel this way, and yet they all manage to overcome it, therefore so can they.


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Given the nature of space marines (and they shall know no fear), I doubt they get together before battle and discuss their feelings, and especially not with other chapters.

So the summary I'm getting from everyone's comments is that, especially due to the fact that knowledge of these flaws and the details thereof is not particularly widespread, identifying particular Gene-Seed flaws as the Black Rage and Red Thirst is difficult at best when the progenitors of the Chapter are unknown. Therefore a Chapter may not know that it belongs to the Blood Angels lineage because it is unable to identify the Twin-Flaws present in their Gene-Seed. But: If they identify the Twin-Flaws in their Gene-Seed, then they at least know they are of the Blood Angels lineage.

Did I get that right?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:One thing you got to know is that not all Blood Angels successors suffer from the Black Rage. It can simply be corrected by The Mechanicum when founding a new chapter. The BAs and most of their successors see the Black Rage as sort of an inheritance from their Primarch and just sort of live with it.

Do you have a source for this? Because all of the materials I've read (Lexi, W40K Wiki) seem to at least imply (if not explicitly say) that all Blood Angels Successors (whether they know they are Blood Angels Successors or not) suffer from both the Black Rage and the Red Thirst and are unable to cure it.

That's basically the premise of the 21st "cursed" founding. The Lamenters for example have corrected BA gene seed but horrible things just keep happening to them. It's supposed to show that trying to meddle with The Emperor's work will always end badly.

According to the latest Ragnar Blackmane novel the Space Wolves and Flesh Tearers (Blood Angels successor) have been at each other's throats for a good long time - supposed reason is both chapters believe the other attacked them, neither is willing to take the accusation further because both know damn well their gene-seed flaw could have caused members of their own to turn on allies.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's basically the premise of the 21st "cursed" founding. The Lamenters for example have corrected BA gene seed but horrible things just keep happening to them. It's supposed to show that trying to meddle with The Emperor's work will always end badly.

I am aware that the premise of the 21st Founding was which is (and I quote): '...perfecting and removing the existing, identified deficiencies in flawed Adeptus Astartes gene-seed, and ultimately the production of new and improved Primarch-like Space Marines as part of what was called "Project Homo Sapiens Novus".' Additionally, the Lexicanum Page concerning the Lamenters reads (to me, at least) more like they suffer the Black Rage and Red Thirst at such a reduced rate that it is effectively negligible (especially if you combine it with what the Warhammer 40,000 Wiki has to say on the topic). And even if the Twin-Flaws have been cured in the Lamenters' Gene-Seed, it is unknown/unstated whether or not they have any Successor Chapters to their name, meaning that they are likely one of the few (if not the only) Blood Angels Successor Chapter to ever overcome the Twin-Flaws and still exist. Then there's the fact that genetic tampering on the sort of scale that allows for the disappearance of the Twin-Flaws was - as far as I'm aware - only ever done during the 21st Founding, meaning that if other Blood Angels Successor Chapters exist who do not possess the Twin-Flaws, I find it highly unlikely it was because of any efforts made by the Mechanicum outside of the 21st Founding.

In short - the Lameneters are a one-off, genetically lucky Chapter that is highly unlikely to ever be replicated in terms of the abolishment of the Twin-Flaws. So in the grand scheme of Blood Angels, their Successor Chapters, and the curing of the Twin-Flaws, they are a blip that can effectively be ignored (especially since the process that was used to create the Lamenters is not at all likely to be replicated).

 IllumiNini wrote:
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In short - the Lameneters are a one-off, genetically lucky Chapter that is highly unlikely to ever be replicated in terms of the abolishment of the Twin-Flaws. So in the grand scheme of Blood Angels, their Successor Chapters, and the curing of the Twin-Flaws, they are a blip that can effectively be ignored (especially since the process that was used to create the Lamenters is not at all likely to be replicated).

Hah. Never thought I'd see anyone call them lucky in any way. And at least they do get the Red Thirst now.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
In short - the Lameneters are a one-off, genetically lucky Chapter that is highly unlikely to ever be replicated in terms of the abolishment of the Twin-Flaws. So in the grand scheme of Blood Angels, their Successor Chapters, and the curing of the Twin-Flaws, they are a blip that can effectively be ignored (especially since the process that was used to create the Lamenters is not at all likely to be replicated).

Hah. Never thought I'd see anyone call them lucky in any way. And at least they do get the Red Thirst now.

Well they weren't genetically screwed from day one, so there's that haha