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So, Just over a month ago I had neither of these models, now it looks like I am going to own both very soon. I am halfway through buuilding my daemon knight of khorne, and I was going to be placing it into my tournament list this year for my KDK. However, now I may also have the Kytan, I am trying to decide which one would be the better selection for the army.

So list aside, I thought I would come to Dakka for the answer. Let me give you some numbers and then we can go from there.

The daemon knight of Khorne is around 425 points. (I would likely take the paladin varient) It is the same as a knight paladn except it has the daemon special rule. It also has a foe reaper chainsword which means +1 on the D table when facing monstrous creatures and gargantuans. It aslo gains D3 attacks on the charge rather than 1 and it can re roll it's number of stomps. Its stat line is that of any knight titan.

On the other hand is there Kytan. At 525 points its quite a bit more pricy than the daemon knight. It's stat line is different, WS:5 BS:3 S:10 Front and side armour 13 and rear armour 11 I:5 A:4 HP:6. So it has an additional attack, is WS5 and most importantly it is initative 5. It also has some extra special rules such as daemonforge, fleet, rage, crusader, it will not die, it is also a daeon and has a rule called unsaiable bloodlust. Essentially if it kills something in the shooting phase it can decide to charge a different unit. Its shooting weapon is a S8 AP3 8 shot gatling cannon at 48" range too, so even with BS:3 it's still quite a beast. 6 attacks on the charge at init 5, WS:5 and with a S AP1 weapon is also something to be fearfull of, but it also doesn't have the ion shield that the daemon knight benefits from. So, I have been back and forth all day, doing exactly this, and I need your help. Which one is the best buy?

Your knight is also a Deamon so not only do you get the shooting shield on one side but you also get the Deamon save on all sides, making it waaaaay better than a Kytan since it will actually live to get to where you want it to get to.

I'd say the knight. I've played with both and the knight works better for me most of the time and also saves me points for other elements. They Kytan is good dont get me wrong but I prefer the knight every time.

I like to take the Knight for all the reasons you have given plus you can take a dirge caster, not the best thing in the world but when your knight is in the middle of a Tau firing line your cc units are going to appreciate the lack of supporting fire hitting them when they charge.

Kytan looks awesome but it does not have the dakka to justify its point cost over the knight which has almost as much shooting and better melee with better survival. The answer is pretty obvious once you plug in the numbers. Sadly. Because the Kytan is cool as f&&k.

The kytan is, unfortunatly, inferior to the khorne knight.

Not because the kytan is bad, but because the khorne knight is freaking terrifying. overpowered even.
Heck, even compared to other daemon knights, none is even close to the khorne knight.

Slannesh knight cost the same, but it's ability is a CHANCE to lower enemy initiative.
Tzeentch costs even and merely gets rerolling 1s to hit (and soul blaze on stubbers, who cares.)
Nurgle is 25 over khorne, and gets IWND. yep, IWND, rather than all the fancy melee buffs. practically first time nurgle is the one shafted.


As for dirge casters, they will RARELY do anything.
Bu for that ONE TIME you are charging something with a D gun, its a well-worth investment.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Slannesh knight cost the same, but it's ability is a CHANCE to lower enemy initiative.
Tzeentch costs even and merely gets rerolling 1s to hit (and soul blaze on stubbers, who cares.)
Nurgle is 25 over khorne, and gets IWND. yep, IWND, rather than all the fancy melee buffs. practically first time nurgle is the one shafted.

Well the others do get their Daemon bonuses as well:
Slaanesh gets fleet, ok still bad,
Tzeentch gets re-roll 1s, this is where you get cursed earth and grimoire for your 2++ re-rollable cheese knight,
Nurgle gets shrouded, stick it behind a big building that it can peak over and laugh because of your stupid cover saves.

Khorne gets furious charge which doesn't affect the knight, so it is cheaper.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Slannesh knight cost the same, but it's ability is a CHANCE to lower enemy initiative.
Tzeentch costs even and merely gets rerolling 1s to hit (and soul blaze on stubbers, who cares.)
Nurgle is 25 over khorne, and gets IWND. yep, IWND, rather than all the fancy melee buffs. practically first time nurgle is the one shafted.

Well the others do get their Daemon bonuses as well:
Slaanesh gets fleet, ok still bad,
Tzeentch gets re-roll 1s, this is where you get cursed earth and grimoire for your 2++ re-rollable cheese knight,
Nurgle gets shrouded, stick it behind a big building that it can peak over and laugh because of your stupid cover saves.

Khorne gets furious charge which doesn't affect the knight, so it is cheaper.

Uh, no, they don't. That requires the "Daemon of X" special rule. Knights do not get that, they 'Count as being a Daemon aligned with X', which is different. (Presumably it's there for things like Preferred Enemy.)

If only forgeworld would do an FAQ for Chaos units ever ever.

FAQ for what?

They do NOT get the "daemon of" rule, there is nothing that even suggests this. they only count as if they are related to that god for the purpose of preferred enemy and the likes.

The bonuses they get is what is listed, no more, no less.

 BoomWolf wrote:
FAQ for what?

They do NOT get the "daemon of" rule, there is nothing that even suggests this. they only count as if they are related to that god for the purpose of preferred enemy and the likes.

The bonuses they get is what is listed, no more, no less.

you'd be surprised how many people see it differently

Anyone seeing it differently needs to go back to gradeschool English class.

It's been muddied by FW email responses which made it even more confusing.

Its fine for khorne. But the tzeentch daemon bonus is super expensive and basically does nothing

Waaaghpower wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Slannesh knight cost the same, but it's ability is a CHANCE to lower enemy initiative.
Tzeentch costs even and merely gets rerolling 1s to hit (and soul blaze on stubbers, who cares.)
Nurgle is 25 over khorne, and gets IWND. yep, IWND, rather than all the fancy melee buffs. practically first time nurgle is the one shafted.

Well the others do get their Daemon bonuses as well:
Slaanesh gets fleet, ok still bad,
Tzeentch gets re-roll 1s, this is where you get cursed earth and grimoire for your 2++ re-rollable cheese knight,
Nurgle gets shrouded, stick it behind a big building that it can peak over and laugh because of your stupid cover saves.

Khorne gets furious charge which doesn't affect the knight, so it is cheaper.

Uh, no, they don't. That requires the "Daemon of X" special rule. Knights do not get that, they 'Count as being a Daemon aligned with X', which is different. (Presumably it's there for things like Preferred Enemy.)

RAW on the dataslate, no they don't get it. However an Email from FW said that the Knights do in fact gain Daemon of X, whether that Email was legitimate no one knows. However the local tournaments I have entered all play it as such and so does my local group.

Of course, other Emails were sent that came with the reply they don't get Daemon of X, then others replied with they do. So really it is up to TOs and players to decide between themselves. We only decided in favour because the Tzeentch upgrade seemed far too expensive for re-rolling 1s (on a knight who can only take blast weapons as a main weapon) and soul blaze for the stubber.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Slannesh knight cost the same, but it's ability is a CHANCE to lower enemy initiative.
Tzeentch costs even and merely gets rerolling 1s to hit (and soul blaze on stubbers, who cares.)
Nurgle is 25 over khorne, and gets IWND. yep, IWND, rather than all the fancy melee buffs. practically first time nurgle is the one shafted.

Well the others do get their Daemon bonuses as well:
Slaanesh gets fleet, ok still bad,
Tzeentch gets re-roll 1s, this is where you get cursed earth and grimoire for your 2++ re-rollable cheese knight,
Nurgle gets shrouded, stick it behind a big building that it can peak over and laugh because of your stupid cover saves.

Khorne gets furious charge which doesn't affect the knight, so it is cheaper.

Uh, no, they don't. That requires the "Daemon of X" special rule. Knights do not get that, they 'Count as being a Daemon aligned with X', which is different. (Presumably it's there for things like Preferred Enemy.)

Uh, yeah, they do. It's all covered under the Daemonic Alignment rules in the Daemon Codex where it details the different bonuses each alignment gives. So a Tzeentch Knight also gets re-roll saves of 1 for example. The points costs for the Chaos Knight alignment upgrades also make a lot more sense when you consider the Daemon of X benefits that they get.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Uh, yeah, they do. It's all covered under the Daemonic Alignment rules in the Daemon Codex where it details the different bonuses each alignment gives. So a Tzeentch Knight also gets re-roll saves of 1 for example. The points costs for the Chaos Knight alignment upgrades also make a lot more sense when you consider the Daemon of X benefits that they get.

His statement is sound: the knights count as a 'Daemon alligned with X', in order to get the bonus they must be a 'Daemon of X'. The argument is whether a 'Daemon alligned with X' is equal to a 'Daemon of X'.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Uh, yeah, they do. It's all covered under the Daemonic Alignment rules in the Daemon Codex where it details the different bonuses each alignment gives. So a Tzeentch Knight also gets re-roll saves of 1 for example. The points costs for the Chaos Knight alignment upgrades also make a lot more sense when you consider the Daemon of X benefits that they get.

His statement is sound: the knights count as a 'Daemon alligned with X', in order to get the bonus they must be a 'Daemon of X'. The argument is whether a 'Daemon alligned with X' is equal to a 'Daemon of X'.

Yes, I am asserting that they are equal for all intents and purposes, as outlined in the Daemonic Alignment rules. It doesn't really need an FAQ but FW appear to have clarified this was their intent in one of those emails that were posted previously.

It counts as alignment for the purposes of different rules, like the one Grey Knights artifact that gives a 2++ around Khorne Daemons. While not a Daemon of Khorne, he counts for that purpose I guess.

HAD the rule been demonic alignment, there was some merit to the argument. But it's not.
The rule is "daemon of Xć