Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sorry if this has already been asked, but can Traitor Legions ally with each other?

My assumption was yes, but there was a discussion going on about it at the FLGS. The argument was, since they were the same faction, they could only ally with one another if one army had it's own Codex.

I don't own the Traitor Legions book, so I can't refer to any specific language. Some other people on the board seem to think it is possible for, say, Death Guard and Night Lords to ally so, is it so?

Normally you may only take an Allied detachment if it contains units from a faction other than your Warlord's faction.
Armies like Space Marines & Tau have special exceptions to this.

So no, you cannot take an Allied detachment of CSM if your primary detachment is also CSM. The Legion does not matter, as all a Faction: CSM
However, you are free to take a second CAD or other detachment, including Formations, as there is no limit on how many detachments you can take.
This just means you'll have to take 2 Troops instead of 1, so not really a big deal.

In your example, you are perfectly free to "ally" Death Guard & Night Lords, so long as neither uses the "Allied Detachment". Take CADs or Formations and you are golden.

Alternatively, you can take, say, a Daemon CAD or Formation as you Primary (so this would contain your WL), they you may take as many 1 HQ/1 Troop Allied detachments of CSM as you can fit.
For example, I could take an Omniscient Oracles formation with FateWeaver & 1 LoC. FW as my Warlord.
Then I could take 3 Allied Detachments of CSM: 1 Night Lords DP + Cultists, 1 Alpha Legion DP + cultist, & 1 Iron Warriors DP + Oblits. All DP have a 2+ armour relic and are Tzeentch for 2+ re-roll shenanigans.

-

As far as the Allied Detachment goes, I'd assume you'd treat the same Space Marines treat Chapter Tactics, so yes as long as the Allied Detachment is not from the same Legion as the Primary Detachment.

Of course as soon as you want to run duel CAD or formations or whatever all of this becomes mout, there's absolutely nothing to stop you running two detachments together from the same book.

 Imateria wrote:
As far as the Allied Detachment goes, I'd assume you'd treat the same Space Marines treat Chapter Tactics, so yes as long as the Allied Detachment is not from the same Legion as the Primary Detachment.

This would have been nice, but Chapter tactics specifically allow Allied detachments of different Chapter Tactics. Legions do not.
So no Allied Detachments, I'm afraid

 Imateria wrote:
As far as the Allied Detachment goes, I'd assume you'd treat the same Space Marines treat Chapter Tactics, so yes as long as the Allied Detachment is not from the same Legion as the Primary Detachment.

Of course as soon as you want to run duel CAD or formations or whatever all of this becomes mout, there's absolutely nothing to stop you running two detachments together from the same book.

That would be a houserule though. Galef is correct as far as RAW is concerned. There is no way to take allied legion detachments unless your warlord is not actually CSM.

So switching your warlord to a daemon/daemonkin/renegade is one way to get csm allied detachment use.

I would encourage people to message GW and request that the legions get the same self allying option as space marine chapters.

Or just get rid of the Allied detachment entirely. It is almost irrelevant when you can take unlimited CADs.
And with the Legions opening up so many different units as Troops, an extra Troop choice is hardly a tax.

Haha in most cases yeah. But the Thousand Sons. Oof

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Haha in most cases yeah. But the Thousand Sons. Oof

Tsons can still take cultists. In fact they have a T4 variant unique to them (Tzaangors)

Use a normal CAD or specific formations. All Legions are from the CSM Faction, so you cannot use a CSM Allied Detach if your warlord is from the CSM Faction

Galef wrote:Normally you may only take an Allied detachment if it contains units from a faction other than your Warlord's faction.
Armies like Space Marines & Tau have special exceptions to this.

That was the odl Farsight Enclaves supplement, made in 6th - when you needed to have specific permission to allow allied detachs from the same army of your warlord. Since 7th hit, that was made moot and illegal.

The new FSE supplement has no word about Allied Detachments.

Please forgive me for being so specific, but I want to make sure I know what rules to point at. This is a part of 7th edition I know little about.

In the BRB, p. 560, Primary Detachment, it says: “Every army has a Primary Detachment. If you organise your army using the Battle-forged method, whichever Detachment contains your Warlord is your Primary Detachment.”

Makes sense. The warlord is in the primary detachment, and that's what makes it the primary detachment.

In the BRB, p. 561, under detachments: “There is no limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-forged army can include and you can use any mixture of Detachments you have available, within the restrictions of the rules that follow.”

Okay, you can use any mixture of detachments provided they are not forbidden. That's clear.

In the BRB, p. 569, Combined Arms Detachment, for allies, it says: "All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction).”

For a CAD, if you are taking an allied detachment, they must be from a different faction. Check, got it.

In the BRB, p. 575, under Allies, it says: "You can include models from any number of different Factions in the same army if you wish. Irrespective of the method you use to choose your army, this section tells you how models from different Factions fight alongside each other.” It goes on to say, “The Allies Matrix on the next page shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army. ”

So, if different factions are fighting in the same army, there are certain benefits that apply based on the matrix.

In the BRB, on p. 576, it gives an allies matrix. For each faction, it lists it's own faction as Battle Brothers.

If I understand this all correctly:

- You start with a detachment.

- If it's a CAD, you can take an allied detachment.

- If you are playing with allies, you can benefit from certain bonuses based on the level of alliance. This means Allies has a specific meaning.

- An allied detachment is a Detachment, in the formal sense. It has rules around how it can be used. One of those rules happens to be that it must have a different faction from the primary detachment.

- A Battle Forged army can include any number of detachments in any mixture, subject to restrictions like those for an allied detachment.

Someone point out the obvious rules which I overlooked. The question becomes:

1) I get that you cannot take a Black Legion CAD and ally it with a CSM Allied Detachment. Is there anything to prevent you from taking a Black Legion Speartip Detachment and a regular CSM CAD?

2) If a Black Legion Detachment and a regular CSM CAD were fighting in the same army, would the benefits of the Allies matrix apply? Or is this just for detachments where one is an Allied detachment?

3) Obviously, if you were playing an unbound army, you could take any models you want. When does an army become unbound? For example, if you took 2 detachments that are legal and put them together into an army, do you still get command benefits? Is there anything to prevent you from fielding 2 CADs that are Come the Apocolypse on the allies matrix, for instance?









Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record, if my logic is correct, there would be almost no reason to take an allied detachment with a Traitor Legion. You would always want to take a CAD (for Objective Secured and Ideal Commander) or use the Detachment unique to that legion (for it's command benefits.)

Part of the reason this seems so confusing is because of the section titled allies. The book does little to distinguish between an Allied Detachment and the levels of Alliance.

I have mostly sat out 7th edition and only played games with CSMs under a single CAD when I am trying out Forgeworld models or teaching people how to play the game. While I have faced opponents with multiple detachments in their armies, it is a little bit of a challenge to understand these mechanics when you are coming to them fresh.

Bit of a mistake there
"In the BRB, p. 569 (? I have 122), Combined Arms Detachment, for allies, it says: "All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction).”

The restriction is for the Allied detachment, not the CAD. They are two different detachments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to the questions

1) I get that you cannot take a Black Legion CAD and ally it with a CSM Allied Detachment. Is there anything to prevent you from taking a Black Legion Speartip Detachment and a regular CSM CAD?
- Nothing prevents that combination.

2) If a Black Legion Detachment and a regular CSM CAD were fighting in the same army, would the benefits of the Allies matrix apply? Or is this just for detachments where one is an Allied detachment?
Yes, you would be battle brothers.

3) Obviously, if you were playing an unbound army, you could take any models you want. When does an army become unbound? For example, if you took 2 detachments that are legal and put them together into an army, do you still get command benefits? Is there anything to prevent you from fielding 2 CADs that are Come the Apocolypse on the allies matrix, for instance?
An army becomes unbound if Any model is not part of a detachment or formation. In this case you lose all detachment benefits (but keep formation benefits).
Yes you can field Come the apocalypse allies, but the penalties apply (and this is often banned).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason to want an allied detachment is to take a fancy HQ without having to get two troops you don't really want as well. (but you can live without it, for sure)

@ techsoldaten


It's not a Combined Arms Detachment for Allies. There's the Combined Arms Detachment, which is the one with 2 troop units required. The Allied Detachment is the other detachment pictured. This is the one that has 1 troop unit required. The Allied Detachment is completely separate from the Combined Arms detachment, as shown on page 122 of the hard copy version of the rulebook., as Captyn_Bob said. The rules for an Allied Detachment are different from the rules for a Combined Arms Detachment. The requirements of a different faction for an Allied Detachment do not apply to a CAD.