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Can a FMC that zoomed off the table deep strike back on the table from ongoing reserves??? cheers.

Yes. I would previously have said not if they didn't start the game in deep strike reserves but GW have set a precedent with the draft FAQ ruling for Swooping Hawks now allowing them to DS in from ongoing reserves even if they start the game on the table.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes. I would previously have said not if they didn't start the game in deep strike reserves but GW have set a precedent with the draft FAQ ruling for Swooping Hawks now allowing them to DS in from ongoing reserves even if they start the game on the table.

I would temper the precedent of 1 unit with an exceptional rule/activity from overriding BRB for all other unit types

I believe the precedent should be from the line in the BRB about deployment. When a unit is placed in reserve, you declare how they will enter.
Just apply this to anytime a unit goes into "ongoing reserves"

Read the deepstrike rules, it states you must declare during the deployment phase

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes. I would previously have said not if they didn't start the game in deep strike reserves but GW have set a precedent with the draft FAQ ruling for Swooping Hawks now allowing them to DS in from ongoing reserves even if they start the game on the table.

I would temper the precedent of 1 unit with an exceptional rule/activity from overriding BRB for all other unit types

What exceptional rule are you referring to here? I don't see that Swooping Hawks have anything like that. Please elaborate.

So.. as long as I declare how I re-enter play (deepstrike or zooming). Its seems RAW that this is a legal move??

http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.com/2015/03/rules-lawyer-ongoing-reserves-and-deep.html

Not exhaustive, but a starting place. You may need to start in deepstrike reserve to have that option available to you

okay, great share on that link..

 pumaman1 wrote:
http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.com/2015/03/rules-lawyer-ongoing-reserves-and-deep.html

Not exhaustive, but a starting place. You may need to start in deepstrike reserve to have that option available to you

This is what I was saying. Previously I'd have agreed they need to start in deep strike reserves in order to DS from ongoing reserves. The draft FAQ ruling for Swooping Hawks indicates, however, that the intention is for that restriction not to apply if you're arriving from ongoing reserves. So I don't see that it would be any different for FMC.

Because FMC don't have the Skyleap movement/special ability

 pumaman1 wrote:
Because FMC don't have the Skyleap movement/special ability

No but they have something similar, and comparable. By the current faq swooping hawks could start in regular reserve, then walk on, then skyleap away, and then deep strike back.

Similarly a FMC could start in reserve, then walk on, then go into ongoing reserve, and then deepstrike in.

The wording on it is similar so one would expect the outcomes to be similar as well.

I can see you didn't read the rules-lawyer post..

"Units that can Deep Strike and voluntarily (or otherwise) enter Ongoing Reserve must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve in order to Deep Strike when arriving from Ongoing Reserves"

If they start in "Normal reserves" if they skyleap away, then then would have to walk on from their board edge.

And the FMC cannot go off the board unless it is zooming, if its gliding it follows to rules of a jump infantry, and is destroyed if it goes off the table edge, barring a special rule.
In zooming mode it is like flyers, where it has to return to the battlefield
Flyers may zoom off the board. There is no rule that suspends this from being during the turn which they come on from reserves. When they enter the board from ongoing reserves, they must zoom onto the board.Hovering flyers may not zoom of the board.

so no, they can't barring a special rule, like the XV109 Y'Vahra

 pumaman1 wrote:
Because FMC don't have the Skyleap movement/special ability

Skyleap has nothing to do with deep striking, it just puts the unit into ongoing reserves. Just like an FMC flying off the board.

So if Swooping Hawks start on the board and Skyleap, and can then deep strike from ongoing reserves, why can't an FMC that starts on the board and flies off into ongoing reserve then also deep strike?

 pumaman1 wrote:
I can see you didn't read the rules-lawyer post..

"Units that can Deep Strike and voluntarily (or otherwise) enter Ongoing Reserve must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve in order to Deep Strike when arriving from Ongoing Reserves"

If they start in "Normal reserves" if they skyleap away, then then would have to walk on from their board edge.

And the FMC cannot go off the board unless it is zooming, if its gliding it follows to rules of a jump infantry, and is destroyed if it goes off the table edge, barring a special rule.
In zooming mode it is like flyers, where it has to return to the battlefield
Flyers may zoom off the board. There is no rule that suspends this from being during the turn which they come on from reserves. When they enter the board from ongoing reserves, they must zoom onto the board.Hovering flyers may not zoom of the board.

so no, they can't barring a special rule, like the XV109 Y'Vahra

That article predates the Eldar draft FAQ which we should consider as precedent in rules-identical scenarios.

It sets a precedent for exactly 1 model with that specific movement type. As 40k is a permissive ruleset, unless you are expressly given permission, you cannot. And since that type of movement is given with the skyleap rule, unless you have that rule, you don't have the movement.

 pumaman1 wrote:



Flyers may zoom off the board. There is no rule that suspends this from being during the turn which they come on from reserves.

?? Used to be a rule that prohibited entering and leaving on the same turn, when did this change?

 pumaman1 wrote:
It sets a precedent for exactly 1 model with that specific movement type. As 40k is a permissive ruleset, unless you are expressly given permission, you cannot. And since that type of movement is given with the skyleap rule, unless you have that rule, you don't have the movement.

I don't think precedent means what you think it means. Also you refer three times to a specific "movement", could you please clarify? Do you mean moving off the board into ongoing reserves? We've already established that the Skyleap rule has nothing to do with, nor even makes any mention of deep striking.

 pumaman1 wrote:
It sets a precedent for exactly 1 model with that specific movement type. As 40k is a permissive ruleset, unless you are expressly given permission, you cannot. And since that type of movement is given with the skyleap rule, unless you have that rule, you don't have the movement.

It does not set a precedent for exactly one model it clearly defines the rules for one model, and then sets a precedent for every other unit with identical rules.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
It sets a precedent for exactly 1 model with that specific movement type. As 40k is a permissive ruleset, unless you are expressly given permission, you cannot. And since that type of movement is given with the skyleap rule, unless you have that rule, you don't have the movement.

I don't think precedent means what you think it means. Also you refer three times to a specific "movement", could you please clarify? Do you mean moving off the board into ongoing reserves? We've already established that the Skyleap rule has nothing to do with, nor even makes any mention of deep striking.

Yup, precedent, real hard to understand:

an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

thanks dictionary.com

SO if the swooping hawk is setting a precedent than going into ongoing reserves (say grey knights via gate of infinity mishap) allows them to deep strike anywhere on the board, as a jump pack infantry, then you could be right. Except you're not. They are only allowed to leave the board due to skyleap. Every other jump pack infantry will die if they leave the board, and don't have the ability to leave at any time. Gate of infinity is a psychic power that allows a movement as if it was deepstrike, and uses the mishap table, which is following an expicit set of rules.
FMC if in gliding mode, are treated jump pack infantry, so if they leave the board, they are destroyed
FMC in zooming mode are like flyers, and return to the battlefield following Return to the Combat zone rules.
you know, rules/actual precedents. The exception to the rule would be a special rule, like skyleap, or gate of infinity, and not be the precedent set.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 coblen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
It sets a precedent for exactly 1 model with that specific movement type. As 40k is a permissive ruleset, unless you are expressly given permission, you cannot. And since that type of movement is given with the skyleap rule, unless you have that rule, you don't have the movement.

It does not set a precedent for exactly one model it clearly defines the rules for one model, and then sets a precedent for every other unit with identical rules.

Which other models have identical rules? IE swoopping hawk jump packs? IE skyleap? Because those being absent, means you are trying to apply a precedent to something that doesn't even meet the initial requirements, of being the same rules to start from.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 coblen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
It sets a precedent for exactly 1 model with that specific movement type. As 40k is a permissive ruleset, unless you are expressly given permission, you cannot. And since that type of movement is given with the skyleap rule, unless you have that rule, you don't have the movement.

It does not set a precedent for exactly one model it clearly defines the rules for one model, and then sets a precedent for every other unit with identical rules.

Which other models have identical rules? IE swoopping hawk jump packs? IE skyleap? Because those being absent, means you are trying to apply a precedent to something that doesn't even meet the initial requirements, of being the same rules to start from.

It does not have to be the same named special rules. Just two rules with functionally identical wording. Read swooping hawk wings, and then read leaving combat airspace.

" A Skyleaping unit is removed from the board and placed into Ongoing Reserve"

"the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves"

Functionally identical.

Except the swooping hawks must stay still in the movement phase to use their skill, or gate of infinity requires a successful manifestation of a power. A flyer, or zooming FMC (because a gliding FMC would die the second it leaves the table, just like an assault marine) is bound by zooming, so it has a rule for how it returns to the table, Return to the battlefield.

Going into Ongoing reserves doesn't eliminate that your FMC zoomed off the board and is bound by Return to the Battlefield, and return to the battlefield zooming. IF you were allowed to return to the battlefield by any method, it would be allowed in the Return to the Battlefield section.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Yup, precedent, real hard to understand:

an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

thanks dictionary.com

Well it seems you're still struggling with the concept to be honest, despite going to find out what it means. Note the part where it says "similar circumstances". An example could be some Swooping Hawks leaving the board and entering Ongoing Reserves, and an FMC leaving the board and entering Ongoing Reserves. These are similar circumstances. Another example would be some Swooping Hawks in Ongoing Reserves which have the Deep Strike rule, and an FMC in Ongoing Reserves which has the Deep Strike rule. Also very similar circumstances.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Which other models have identical rules? IE swoopping hawk jump packs? IE skyleap? Because those being absent, means you are trying to apply a precedent to something that doesn't even meet the initial requirements, of being the same rules to start from.

Now here you seem to have quickly moved from considering "similar circumstances" to requiring "identical rules". Of course FMC don't have identical rules but similar ones that are functionally equivalent for the purpose of this argument. As coblen summed it up:

 coblen wrote:
It does not have to be the same named special rules. Just two rules with functionally identical wording. Read swooping hawk wings, and then read leaving combat airspace.

" A Skyleaping unit is removed from the board and placed into Ongoing Reserve"

"the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves"

Functionally identical.

These functionally equivalent situations (as well as both units having the Deep Strike rule) form the basis for the Draft Swooping Hawk FAQ setting a precedent for FMCs in ongoing reserve.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Except the swooping hawks must stay still in the movement phase to use their skill, or gate of infinity requires a successful manifestation of a power.

These statements have neither relevance or merit.

 pumaman1 wrote:
A flyer, or zooming FMC (because a gliding FMC would die the second it leaves the table, just like an assault marine) is bound by zooming, so it has a rule for how it returns to the table, Return to the battlefield.

Going into Ongoing reserves doesn't eliminate that your FMC zoomed off the board and is bound by Return to the Battlefield, and return to the battlefield zooming. IF you were allowed to return to the battlefield by any method, it would be allowed in the Return to the Battlefield section.

I think you mean to refer to a swooping FMC. Notwithstanding this, the rules for returning to the battlefield are relevant to all units and not specific to FMC. In any case, FMC that arrive by Deep Strike are automatically in swooping mode so that's not really a problem.

Anyway, I can't really explain it any clearer than that. If you disagree, that's fine. I don't even know how GW would rule it if they were specifically asked about FMC deep striking from ongoing reserve and they could easily just say no for fluff reasons. All I'm saying is that where previously I would have said no to them being able to do so on a RAW basis, the draft Swooping Hawk FAQ sets a precedent (perhaps unintentionally) that should make it possible in terms of the rules.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Yup, precedent, real hard to understand:

an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

thanks dictionary.com

Well it seems you're still struggling with the concept to be honest, despite going to find out what it means. Note the part where it says "similar circumstances". An example could be some Swooping Hawks leaving the board and entering Ongoing Reserves, and an FMC leaving the board and entering Ongoing Reserves. These are similar circumstances. Another example would be some Swooping Hawks in Ongoing Reserves which have the Deep Strike rule, and an FMC in Ongoing Reserves which has the Deep Strike rule. Also very similar circumstances.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Which other models have identical rules? IE swoopping hawk jump packs? IE skyleap? Because those being absent, means you are trying to apply a precedent to something that doesn't even meet the initial requirements, of being the same rules to start from.

Now here you seem to have quickly moved from considering "similar circumstances" to requiring "identical rules". Of course FMC don't have identical rules but similar ones that are functionally equivalent for the purpose of this argument. As coblen summed it up:

 coblen wrote:
It does not have to be the same named special rules. Just two rules with functionally identical wording. Read swooping hawk wings, and then read leaving combat airspace.

" A Skyleaping unit is removed from the board and placed into Ongoing Reserve"

"the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves"

Functionally identical.

These functionally equivalent situations (as well as both units having the Deep Strike rule) form the basis for the Draft Swooping Hawk FAQ setting a precedent for FMCs in ongoing reserve.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Except the swooping hawks must stay still in the movement phase to use their skill, or gate of infinity requires a successful manifestation of a power.

These statements have neither relevance or merit.

 pumaman1 wrote:
A flyer, or zooming FMC (because a gliding FMC would die the second it leaves the table, just like an assault marine) is bound by zooming, so it has a rule for how it returns to the table, Return to the battlefield.

Going into Ongoing reserves doesn't eliminate that your FMC zoomed off the board and is bound by Return to the Battlefield, and return to the battlefield zooming. IF you were allowed to return to the battlefield by any method, it would be allowed in the Return to the Battlefield section.

I think you mean to refer to a swooping FMC. Notwithstanding this, the rules for returning to the battlefield are relevant to all units and not specific to FMC. In any case, FMC that arrive by Deep Strike are automatically in swooping mode so that's not really a problem.

Anyway, I can't really explain it any clearer than that. If you disagree, that's fine. I don't even know how GW would rule it if they were specifically asked about FMC deep striking from ongoing reserve and they could easily just say no for fluff reasons. All I'm saying is that where previously I would have said no to them being able to do so on a RAW basis, the draft Swooping Hawk FAQ sets a precedent (perhaps unintentionally) that should make it possible in terms of the rules.

Absolutely infuriating... that in a permissive rule set, where you can only do something if you have permission, you believe that 1 unit in 1 codex having the permission do do something gives carte blanche to anything that has ongoing reserves permission to do the same. An apple and an egg both start in my shopping cart, but they are entirely different.

As you read rules, please make sure to read the entire rule, and not just stop when you see "ongoing reserves." The nature of how you get to ongoing reserves matters as well.

And as stated, they are not in similar circumstances, they are indifferent circumstances due to the nature of how the arrived in ongoing reserves, and the rules associated with arriving there in that fashion. Which is why i point out the differences in the movement phase, because it changes the BASIC CONDITIONS OF HOW THEY GET INTO ONGOING RESERVES and as a by-product WHAT THE OPTIONS ARE FROM ONGOING RESERVES.. Ongoing reserves doesn't just wipe the slate clean, the conditions of how you get there matter.

Secondly "Return to the battlefield" is only allowed by flyers, and FMC, everyone else who is off the board counts as destroyed, right in the basic rules. You must have an exception, like flyers, FMC, swooping hawks, piranha firestream wing, etc to leave the battlefield.

And clearly i disagree, your points are clear, but ignoring major rules trying to stretch literally 1 units exception into the rule.

A SM predator and a BA predator(with overcharged engines) are similar, yet only one gets to move 12" and fire 2 weapons, and the other would have to snap fire all of them. Similar, but the small difference makesa huge change.

I don't see how a FMC swooping off the board would be able to come back on via deep strike, at least without having the deep strike rule. Ongoing Reserves rules do not say you return via deep strike. FMC rules don't list Deep Strike as a special rule the FMC status gives you.

pumaman1 wrote:
And clearly i disagree, your points are clear, but ignoring major rules trying to stretch literally 1 units exception into the rule.
.

The swooping hawks FAQ is not an exception to the rule it is an explanation on how to play the rule as it is written. As such it gives a precedent for how functionally identically worded rules should be played as written.

doctortom wrote:I don't see how a FMC swooping off the board would be able to come back on via deep strike, at least without having the deep strike rule. Ongoing Reserves rules do not say you return via deep strike. FMC rules don't list Deep Strike as a special rule the FMC status gives you.

Your right that we should be more specific in that only FMC's with the deep strike rule would be able to come back using deepstrike. Which is all of the daemon FMC's.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Absolutely infuriating... that in a permissive rule set, where you can only do something if you have permission, you believe that 1 unit in 1 codex having the permission do do something gives carte blanche to anything that has ongoing reserves permission to do the same.

I am pointing out that the two units we are discussing are in functionally equivalent situations (both in ongoing reserves and both having the deep strike rule) and that the permission for Swooping Hawks to DS from ongoing reserves should therefore logically apply to the FMC also. I'm not saying that is necessarily the intention of GW but they are in the same situation as the hawks.

 pumaman1 wrote:
An apple and an egg both start in my shopping cart, but they are entirely different.

Irrelevant. But they can both be eaten.

 pumaman1 wrote:
As you read rules, please make sure to read the entire rule, and not just stop when you see "ongoing reserves." The nature of how you get to ongoing reserves matters as well.

No it doesn't. You've failed to explain how at the very least.

 pumaman1 wrote:
And as stated, they are not in similar circumstances, they are indifferent circumstances due to the nature of how the arrived in ongoing reserves, and the rules associated with arriving there in that fashion. Which is why i point out the differences in the movement phase, because it changes the BASIC CONDITIONS OF HOW THEY GET INTO ONGOING RESERVES and as a by-product WHAT THE OPTIONS ARE FROM ONGOING RESERVES.. Ongoing reserves doesn't just wipe the slate clean, the conditions of how you get there matter.

How they get there doesn't matter. The BRB options for both are to come on from their table edge from ongoing reserve. The FAQ indicates that Swooping Hawks can DS from there. The FMC are in exactly the same position (in ongoing reserves and having the deep strike rule)

 pumaman1 wrote:
Secondly "Return to the battlefield" is only allowed by flyers, and FMC, everyone else who is off the board counts as destroyed, right in the basic rules. You must have an exception, like flyers, FMC, swooping hawks, piranha firestream wing, etc to leave the battlefield.

Agreed you need an exception. Both Swooping Hawks and FMC have one. Is there a point here?

 pumaman1 wrote:
And clearly i disagree, your points are clear, but ignoring major rules trying to stretch literally 1 units exception into the rule.

Which rules am I ignoring?

 pumaman1 wrote:
A SM predator and a BA predator(with overcharged engines) are similar, yet only one gets to move 12" and fire 2 weapons, and the other would have to snap fire all of them. Similar, but the small difference makesa huge change.

Irrelevant. The difference in their rules means they are not in functionally equivalent circumstances, as you have detailed.

 doctortom wrote:
I don't see how a FMC swooping off the board would be able to come back on via deep strike, at least without having the deep strike rule. Ongoing Reserves rules do not say you return via deep strike. FMC rules don't list Deep Strike as a special rule the FMC status gives you.

Fair point, perhaps they don't all inherently have the DS rule. But many do, e.g. a Daemon Prince so the argument still stands for those that do.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I don't see how a FMC swooping off the board would be able to come back on via deep strike, at least without having the deep strike rule. Ongoing Reserves rules do not say you return via deep strike. FMC rules don't list Deep Strike as a special rule the FMC status gives you.

Fair point, perhaps they don't all inherently have the DS rule. But many do, e.g. a Daemon Prince so the argument still stands for those that do.

Not necessarily. Unless I'm remembering a past edition, Swooping Hawks have specific permission to come back using deep strike. FMC's don't have that specific permission.

 doctortom wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I don't see how a FMC swooping off the board would be able to come back on via deep strike, at least without having the deep strike rule. Ongoing Reserves rules do not say you return via deep strike. FMC rules don't list Deep Strike as a special rule the FMC status gives you.

Fair point, perhaps they don't all inherently have the DS rule. But many do, e.g. a Daemon Prince so the argument still stands for those that do.

Not necessarily. Unless I'm remembering a past edition, Swooping Hawks have specific permission to come back using deep strike. FMC's don't have that specific permission.

Neither do swooping hawks. All the rule says is that they go into ongoing reserves. It never mentions how they come back.

 doctortom wrote:
I don't see how a FMC swooping off the board would be able to come back on via deep strike, at least without having the deep strike rule. Ongoing Reserves rules do not say you return via deep strike. FMC rules don't list Deep Strike as a special rule the FMC status gives you.

The same way a Mishapped Deep Striking Assault Squad does, I would presume.

FMC rules sort of list Deep Strike as a special rule the FMC status gives you, or at least the FAQ confirms that their ability to move like a Jump Monstrous Creature (which comes with Deep Strike) applies all the time. So, that part is out of the way.

Ongoing Reserves states:

If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always reenter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.

So, aside from the difference of happening mid-game, as opposed to deployment, Ongoing Reserves is still Reserves.

Deep Strike states:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)...

So being in Deep Strike Reserves is determined when the unit is being placed in Reserves. This still does not absolve the unit in Ongoing Reserve to still have started the game in Reserve, as has been pointed out.

And just the bring the point round to my first sentence, the Deep Strike Mishap:

4-6 - Delayed. Because of mechanical failure or enemy action, the reinforcements are delayed.

The unit is placed in Ongoing Reserves.

And the BRB FAQ also points out:

Q: If the Veil of Darkness is used while with a group of warriors and you go into Ongoing Reserves due to a Deep Strike Mishap, can you come in by Deep Striking?

A: Only if all of the models involved have the Deep Strike rule.

So, it sounds like the pieces are there and only some sort of pique at a perspective of brokenness (ala Battle Brothers embarking during deployment) would be a reason to state why FMC's could not Deep Strike after going in to Ongoing Reserves (if they had originally Deep Striked to deploy).