Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Charge Change

You may charge targets you cannot see.

Overwatch Change

You may overwatch targets you cannot see. You must still be in range to overwatch, though. (Excepting flame template weapons.)

Why not simplify it? "When firing Overwatch, all weapons count as being in range. If the weapon has multiple Range profiles (Such as with Rapid-fire Weapons) they count as being at the shortest possible range."
It'd need a caveat for Supporting Fire, of course.

Because what if you charge a 50 man conscript blob that's spread out across the entire board? Or what if the squad is positioned where some of them are behind a building and can't physically see, even when the charge is complete?

It'd be simpler, sure, and I actually think it's a good alternative. But sometimes, the situation calls for a wee bit more complexity.

Problem is that your version rewards units for making long charges. If you charge from far away and fail, then you take significantly less damage than if you charge and make it into combat.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Problem is that your version rewards units for making long charges. If you charge from far away and fail, then you take significantly less damage than if you charge and make it into combat.

Except as it stands right now, you take the exact same damage if you charge and make it or if you charge and fail.

And I wouldn't say it rewards long charges-it actually makes them WORSE, since before, if you're making a 12" charge into some Assault Marines, only the frontmost Marines can shoot at you. Now, if you actually make the charge, they can all shoot you.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Problem is that your version rewards units for making long charges. If you charge from far away and fail, then you take significantly less damage than if you charge and make it into combat.

Except as it stands right now, you take the exact same damage if you charge and make it or if you charge and fail.

And I wouldn't say it rewards long charges-it actually makes them WORSE, since before, if you're making a 12" charge into some Assault Marines, only the frontmost Marines can shoot at you. Now, if you actually make the charge, they can all shoot you.

Sorry, I think I phrased it wrong - Players who make charges are punished for their success under your version.

Also, you remove the possibility of shooting a unit out of charge range. There's been a ton of times where I've seen a unit lose its frontmost models, then fail a charge by just 1-2" - The Overwatch didn't just cause wounds, it cancelled out the charge. Your version doesn't allow for that to happen.

That's one thing that I DO think needs to be addressed. I do think Overwatch should be able to cancel the charge. That being said, I think it could work by making sure you measure models right and still taking from the front. If it's a 7" charge, you roll a 7, and then lose two models to Overwatch, you'd be closer, but you wouldn't be in combat.

I guess that works, but it makes the steps and organization pretty clunky and easy to screw up. You have to measure distances, mark off positions, check gun range, fire, then check closest models based off of where the charge WILL be, then remove those models, then check and see if you still make it into charge range.

I suppose. The main thing is I want you to be able to charge targets you can't see (because it's DUMB that you can't) but with current overwatch, that'd be an easy tactic to make yourself immune to overwatch.

Why not just make the rule work both ways? (Oh, and while you're at it, disallow jinking and cover saves from charging units...)

Waaaghpower wrote:
Why not just make the rule work both ways? (Oh, and while you're at it, disallow jinking and cover saves from charging units...)

Explain? And why CAN'T you jink overwatch?

Your rule allowing charges without Line of Sight - Just allow Overwatch without Line of Sight, too.

And you currently CAN Jink while charging. I'm saying it should be disallowed, because it's moronic that you could be weaving and evading while in the middle of a headlong charge. That's a topic for a different thread, though.

No, I know you CAN by the rules. I'm saying why wouldn't you be bale to jink while charging? It makes as much sense as jinking at any other time.

And I guess that would work. It'd lead to some weird situations where half the squad is STILL behind a building when the charge is done and they were able to overwatch, but eh, whatever.

On the subject of Jinking:
Any other time, you take a penalty for jinking. You're spending all your focus on evading incoming fire and, as such, you can barely shoot. It's a tradeoff.
No such tradeoff exists when you charge, though. Theoretically you're doing the same thing: Spending all your focus and energy on evading the incoming bullets. But somehow, you can still charge unimpeded - So you're driving forward in a straight line at top speed, while somehow also dodging and weaving in and out of incoming fire. No penalties exist, which totally undermines the point of jinking in the first place.

I think a disordered charge would be appropriate penalty for that.

I'd like to see Overwatch only happen on a failed charge, at the very most (I'd prefer Overwatch was removed, personally. Shooting is FAR too powerful).

f4ction wrote:
I'd like to see Overwatch only happen on a failed charge, at the very most (I'd prefer Overwatch was removed, personally. Shooting is FAR too powerful).

I would have agreed with you when it came out, but it's been almost two full editions now, and I think - With codices balanced with Overwatch in mind - It's not so bad.
It does weight a bit towards high ROF weapons instead of single accurate weapons, but I think that's a fine trade-off.

The Ork codex has no balance to accommodate Overwatch... aside from "shelf your army"

f4ction wrote:
The Ork codex has no balance to accommodate Overwatch... aside from "shelf your army"

Are you joking? The Ork codex THRIVES on Overwatch.
"Oh, you want to charge my bikers? Sure! Just let me fire off 30+ twin-linked S5 shots!"
"Oh, you're charging my Burnas? Why, let me introduce you to the joys of D3 autohits!"

Yeah, it kicks us in the teeth against armies like Tau, but when we go up against another Assault army it's a huge, huge boon.

Also, we DO have a balance. It's called 'Grots'. Charge with them first. (Or just go MSU.)

Who the heck assaults Orks? Far easier to just shoot them off the table before they can even get in range

I'd just remove Overwatch. Why does it exist? You've had a chance to shoot me as I cross the board to get to you so why do you get another chance to do it in my turn and possibly deny my assault that would otherwise have succeeded?

7th edition already makes assaults extremely difficult to achieve with the -2 charge distance through cover, rarity of assault vehicles, Overwatch and the general increase in the power of shooting. Would the game change massively for the worse if Overwatch was removed?

Slipspace wrote:
I'd just remove Overwatch. Why does it exist? You've had a chance to shoot me as I cross the board to get to you so why do you get another chance to do it in my turn and possibly deny my assault that would otherwise have succeeded?

7th edition already makes assaults extremely difficult to achieve with the -2 charge distance through cover, rarity of assault vehicles, Overwatch and the general increase in the power of shooting. Would the game change massively for the worse if Overwatch was removed?

Because then Chaos/Tyranids/Orks might be a serious threat to Timmy's Ultramarines and Ulthwe. Can't have their NPC factions standing a ghost of a chance against the poster boys.