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Hey Dakka,
I've been fidgeting around with the traitor legions book and I've been liking the upgrades it does give to troops (AW,FC, Fearless). but I'm just a bit iffy on a couple of units. Here's the list:

*World Eaters Butcherhorde*

----Chaos Warband---

- Kharn
- Chaos Terminators, MoK, VotLW, 3 melta, Power axes
- 10 Havoc's, MoK, VotLW, CCW
- 5 CSM MoK, VotLW, LC, Melta-Bomb, rhino, Dozer, dirge
- 5 CSM MoK, VotLW, LC, Melta-Bomb, rhino, Dozer, dirge
- 3 Bikes, MoK,VotLW, LC, 2 melta
- 3 Bikes, MoK,VotLW, LC, 2 melta

---- Lords of the Legion---
Chaos Lord, Juggernaut, MoK, VotLW, AoBF, Sigil
Daemon Prince, Khorne, berserker glaive, wings, armour
---- Spawn----
1*3 Spawn, MoK

I'm quite happy with the daemon prince, he has some resilience and is super killy, my questions are:
1) I originally had the lord with the combined bike squad, but thought the 3 spawn might do it better, would you agree?
2) Is 10 marines enough to escort Kharn, I was running him with 20 but I found it to be too many. In most instances is this enough with the other threats on the board?
3) anything I should be watching out for?

Thanks Dakka

Any advice on the list, or is it just that good?

It's good... but I worry about model count. The Lord might have enough to get him up the field, but the 5 man CSM squads are not going to be able to do much.

I almost want to say the Daemon Prince is a points sink and you would do better adding more infantry. I realize this makes the CL a new shooting magnet, but the Spawn should be able to soak up a lot of shots.

Don't the Havocs need to take heavy weapons? I didn't know they could go without them. Another thought is to replace the Terminators with Chosen.

Anyways, it's not a bad list, I just think World Eaters need lots of things charging to be successful. This is a close combat army.

Yeah I've definitely found the 5 man units seem to be my objective units more than actual threats, I was thinking that the prince would be an extremely killy unit is it his durability that's in question?

Yeah that was my thought initially too, but it wasn't the case so I've decided to just run them as a blob since I only have 2 rhinos. I could drop kharne and upgrade the csm units but I found that he's one of the more dangerous units in the army.

What would your thinking with the chosen be? I considered then but didn't know what to do with them, so I just took a meltacide Terminator squad.

I think that WE lists tend to need a certain volume of fast killy characters to function well. You don't need to go all out there for a TAC list, but guys like the DP are what you're running to deal with hard targets, where other lists run big guns to do the same job. Just make sure you've got two things - one, enough characters total, and enough units to deliver them reliably. Most WE lists are crammed full of jugger lords and DPs for this very reason. My general advice would be to plan to field 3 characters and figure out how to get them stuck in. You have three which is good, but Kharn is slow, and will struggle to engage some of the targets that these characters need to be able to deal with. Long story short, don't drop the DP, or at worst, swap him for a jugger lord.

Some lists go to four characters, but often at the cost of model count. I think you'll struggle with model count anyway, esp against shooty lists, so that's something to think about. Games where you go first and can get some charges off before he shoots you'll be fine, but you need to plan to take a round of shooting from a good list and still be able to compete. A Rift Anomaly on one of your vehicles would help too.

The spawn are good ablative wounds for a lord, and they're a tax anyway, so you might as well find a specific use for them.

I prefer 3-man termicide to Chosen if you're going minimum size for tax purposes. Some guys upsize the termie unit and get a talisman in the unit for the movement boost (which is super hot for terminators). Lots of points though.

I don't have any other Juggernaut Lords anyway, though in these level games finding points for both them and the escort is difficult. I've trialled Kharn and found that whilst he's super killy, the initial bonus to movement is not enough, so I'll give the Terminator idea a go. I've dropped 5 Havocs but gave the Champ a LC, and dropped Kharn, here's the new Terminator unit and lord:

-Terminators, Chainfist, 1x dual LC, 2 Power Axes,
- Lord, Chainfist, LC, Sigil, Terminator armour, talisman

Both with MoK, VotLW.

Would that be a fast and strong enough third unit, the lord feels weaker than Kharn?
What's the rift anomaly, and is it many points, it's a bit tight at the moment?

Thanks for the responses, cheers!

It's 20 pts and it gives you a reroll to seize the initiative, plus PE (tau).

My general theory on WE units is that you need to have a handful of units that all 'matter' as targets and hope, in cases where you don't go first, that you have something left after you eat his first round of fire. Hopefully target saturation helps him split his fire enough that you survive. The lack of defense for a death star is why I'd avoid putting all your characters in one unit.

That Terminator unit isn't huge, but it's probably fine The lord is weaker that Kharn, but he still hits hard. You have that unit plus, spawn with a jugger lord, plus the DP running around. All fast, all solid HtH. Sounds like enough saturation to me, at least to try it out and see how some games go.