Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've seen a few lists recently running swarm leader as an EPT, and I've ran it a couple of times myself to varying degrees of success. The question is, who can make the most out of this interesting title? I play mostly imperial lists, but ive had a few ideas on what to try.

First some wonky ideas:
4 tansarii point vets with light syck and attani mindlink
Fenn rau with swarm leader, concord dawn title, and autothrusters.

Kylo ren with swarm leader, FCS, and general hux
2 x7 delta pilots

Whisper with swarm leader and some other gubbins
2 x7 defenders (defenders are a great pair with swarm leader)

Pure sabacc with title, lwf, swarm leader
Maarek x7 juke
Rexler Brath x7 predator (played this one once. Sabacc flanked a side and rolled 7 dice. Amazing.)

Gamma Squadron Vet with tie shuttle, swarm leader, tie mk.ii engine and fleet officer
Maarek x7 juke
Rexler Brath x7 expertise (ran this as well. Expertise with fleet officer helped immensely, but I dont think I flew the shuttle right. Couldn't get arc most of the game being restricted to greens for fleet officer support)

Zuckuss might see some use from it? Dengar would be interesting with a small swarm. His main shot wouldn't use the evades, but his return shot would after the target uses tokens. Pair with hotshot co-pilot maybe? I don't know.

Not sure how well rebels can use it. They don't like evading much.

My theorizing for swarm leader runs counter to what I have seen played so far.

I would be tempted to put SL on the lowest ps pilot i could find. Like the black Squadron pilots so you take the evade token from ships that don't need it that turn .

Granted that leaves you vulnerable to your opponent getting you to spend the tokens before Swarm leader can use 'em. But it also makes your opponent split fire....

But it's hard to argue with a regional tournament winner: Vessery (sl/ x7), Ryad (ptl, x7, mk2) and Delta (x7)

Vessery is definitely a good call.

When you're rolling 4-6 dice, you have enough results that "reroll one die" and "change one focus result" are detectably worse than a 'real' focus or target lock.

Hence, to really benefit from swarm leader, you need a tough ship (because if you don't get to fire more than once you might as well buy a missile) that can readily get a focus and a target lock in the same turn without needing its elite slot for push the limit or expertise. Vessery is the obvious one, and the fact that x7 defenders already spam free evade tokens just makes the squad better.

The most important thing with swarm leader is that you need multiple sources of dice modification. For example, compare PTL to swarm leader on a 3-dice ship: with focus and a 5-dice attack you average 3.75 hits, with PTL for focus + TL you average 2.8 hits. Spending two actions on supporting ships is a high price to pay for such a modest increase in damage. But let's say you have a way to take swarm leader and focus + TL. Now you're up to 4.68 hits on average, which seems a lot more appealing.

Now you have to think about how to deliver those extra two dice. You need a ship with a 3-4 dice gun or you're spending way too much to shoot like a "normal" ship. You need a ship that doesn't already need its EPT for something else (so, not Soontir Fel). You need a ship that only attacks once per turn (not Corran or a gunner pancake). You need a ship with sufficient PS and maneuverability to deliver the attack consistently. You need a ship that can survive enemy fire long enough to deliver the shot. You need a ship that can contribute enough to be worth it even with your evade sources dead or unable to assist. And you need to do it all for a cheap enough point cost that you can afford to bring other ships that aren't trash. So, who meets the requirements?

Vessery is the obvious choice. His free target lock gives you the focus + TL stack without using your EPT, and x7 defenders aren't really committed to any EPT. And there's certainly nice synergy with other x7 defenders, which have the free evades to be effective even if you have to spend their tokens on the swarm leader shot.

Kylo Ren is interesting. You have FCS for the focus + TL stack, no obvious EPT to take, plenty of HP to avoid the one-shot kill, and having a 4-dice gun to start with is rather terrifying. The downside is that your maneuverability is going to be poor, you'd better make that first shot count because you don't know if you're ever going to get a second attempt.

Rey/Han are potential rebel options. The turret makes delivering the attack very consistent, and both have built-in dice modification. The downside is that the cost is extremely high, and the only real source of evade tokens for rebels is a-wings. Are you willing to play a pancake and two a-wings for a list?

Wedge might work. The dice modification is lacking, but -1 agility makes up for it. And the much cheaper point cost makes it possible to fit some support that doesn't suck. I'm not sold yet though.

Party Bossk is probably the best scum option. Dengar + Zuckuss + 4LOM are enough dice modification (friendly or enemy) to make the swarm leader shot hurt, and the 180* arc + high HP make sure you get to deliver it. The main problem is that, like rebels, there isn't really a great evade source to pair with the leader. The scyk is bad, and the large-base ships are too expensive. Can Bossk + 2x G-1As (with FCS so they can afford to spend their evades) get the job done?

With 1 turns, inspiring recruit, and pattern analyzer Kylo isn't that bad at keeping arc on someone. I thought about possibly putting it on whisper for a ton of dice, but dropping her pilot skill isn't something I'm comfortable with doing. Sabacc does the same job in throwing a lot of red dice, and is nimble enough to get in there to do it, all while costing less than the phantom or shuttle.

Something like this sprang to mind, not played it, not even thought about it that carefully if I'm honest! Vader isn't particularly wed to any one EPT conditional to getting optimum performance out of him, the X7 generates evades with natural efficiency (and one could swap Ryad for another Glaive Sqdn if the extra 1PS was felt important.)

The one weakness I can see is the use of evade tokens to support Swarm Leader undermines the durability of X7 Defenders, but hopefully the PS is high enough to allow a certain amount of board state anticipation as to when to spend the token for SL and when to retain it for defence.

99 points

Pilots
------

Darth Vader (33)
TIE Advanced (29), TIE/x1 (0), Swarm Leader (3), Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

Countess Ryad (33)
TIE Defender (34), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/x7 (-2)

Glaive Squadron Pilot (33)
TIE Defender (34), Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/x7 (-2)

For the Rebels could something be done with Jan Ors crew? In a Bwing e2 for example or a super cheap hwk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something like Rey with Jan with an auto thruster a wing and a Bwing on close station that can use Jan's ability.

One pairing which might be nice are the "free focus" TIE fighters with Swarm Leader - Night Beast, Twin Ion Engines Mk II and Chaser can generate a pair of evades and still have focus themselves, for only 30 points. A pair of TIE fighters with free evades (effectively) isn't a big deal, but maxing out swarm leader for the price of a single X7 might be worth a thought.


I

 Azreal13 wrote:
Something like this sprang to mind, not played it, not even thought about it that carefully if I'm honest! Vader isn't particularly wed to any one EPT conditional to getting optimum performance out of him, the X7 generates evades with natural efficiency (and one could swap Ryad for another Glaive Sqdn if the extra 1PS was felt important.)

The problem with Vader is that you can't spend the target lock you need for ATC, so any blanks you roll are dead results. And you need ATC to make that 2-dice starting point less pathetic, so FCS isn't an option to get the re-roll.

 Flinty wrote:
For the Rebels could something be done with Jan Ors crew? In a Bwing e2 for example or a super cheap hwk.

Something like Rey with Jan with an auto thruster a wing and a Bwing on close station that can use Jan's ability.

I don't think so. Jan in general is probably getting too far into "gimmick list that fails when someone breaks one piece" territory, where Vessery + a pair of x7 defenders is a strong list even without swarm leader.

locarno24 wrote:
One pairing which might be nice are the "free focus" TIE fighters with Swarm Leader - Night Beast, Twin Ion Engines Mk II and Chaser can generate a pair of evades and still have focus themselves, for only 30 points. A pair of TIE fighters with free evades (effectively) isn't a big deal, but maxing out swarm leader for the price of a single X7 might be worth a thought.


I

Problem is, these guys are going to do a lot less than a single X7, and are a lot harder to get the action economy on (odds are that there will be a lot of turns where you do not get their action economy). So, An X7 is an obvious choice over them.

Except that Night Beast & chaser don't have an EPT

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Something like this sprang to mind, not played it, not even thought about it that carefully if I'm honest! Vader isn't particularly wed to any one EPT conditional to getting optimum performance out of him, the X7 generates evades with natural efficiency (and one could swap Ryad for another Glaive Sqdn if the extra 1PS was felt important.)

The problem with Vader is that you can't spend the target lock you need for ATC, so any blanks you roll are dead results. And you need ATC to make that 2-dice starting point less pathetic, so FCS isn't an option to get the re-roll.

I'm a little hazy on the timing since the new ezee-flow™ timing diagram was introduced, but can't you decide in which way you're using the target lock after you've rolled the dice to see how good/bad your dice are? Therefore if you roll a bunch of blanks you use the TL conventionally, otherwise add a crit?

You'd use the ATC on pretty much any occasion other than turns you had a boosted shot from SL for certain, but that 5 dice range 1 shot you want to make sure you mitigate a blank-heavy natural roll.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm a little hazy on the timing since the new ezee-flow™ timing diagram was introduced, but can't you decide in which way you're using the target lock after you've rolled the dice to see how good/bad your dice are? Therefore if you roll a bunch of blanks you use the TL conventionally, otherwise add a crit?

You can do this, but it's not efficient at all. The only way Vader is matching Vessery's firepower is with the extra crit from ATC, with just a 2-dice gun and swarm leader you're just way too far into "not worth it" territory. And if you spend the TL for ATC you're wrecking your action economy, since next turn you have to spend an action to get it back instead stacking focus + evade, barrel rolling into position with focus, etc.

You'd use the ATC on pretty much any occasion other than turns you had a boosted shot from SL for certain, but that 5 dice range 1 shot you want to make sure you mitigate a blank-heavy natural roll.

The problem with the "only use swarm leader occasionally" is that predator is the same cost and incredibly powerful on Vader. If you're taking swarm leader you need to be using it consistently.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm a little hazy on the timing since the new ezee-flow™ timing diagram was introduced, but can't you decide in which way you're using the target lock after you've rolled the dice to see how good/bad your dice are? Therefore if you roll a bunch of blanks you use the TL conventionally, otherwise add a crit?

You can do this, but it's not efficient at all. The only way Vader is matching Vessery's firepower is with the extra crit from ATC, with just a 2-dice gun and swarm leader you're just way too far into "not worth it" territory. And if you spend the TL for ATC you're wrecking your action economy, since next turn you have to spend an action to get it back instead stacking focus + evade, barrel rolling into position with focus, etc.

Based purely on probability, Vessery obviously has the greater damage potential, but Vader's guaranteed crit (except on disastrous rolls) levels the playing field a bit, then you have the extra PS meaning Vader is that step less likely to be outmanoeuvred and lose his shot, and then there's the table state to consider, the Adv doesn't have the reds that the D does, so in a fur ball can generally keep ships in arc more easily. Vessery's no doubt a good option, but I think there's an argument for Vader too.

You'd use the ATC on pretty much any occasion other than turns you had a boosted shot from SL for certain, but that 5 dice range 1 shot you want to make sure you mitigate a blank-heavy natural roll.

The problem with the "only use swarm leader occasionally" is that predator is the same cost and incredibly powerful on Vader. If you're taking swarm leader you need to be using it consistently.

"On occasion" =\= "occasionally." I was acknowledging that there'll be turns (occasions) where you're not able to deploy SL effectively, as much as there will be turns when your dice go cold and the reroll has greater value than the crit. I in no way meant that you should only look to use SL occasionally, obviously the whole point of this thread is to find a list that makes the most possible use from it.

Why not just Howlrunner with a bunch of Academy TIEs?

I know it sounds a bit lackluster, but it might be the simplest way to achieve this. And you can give Howlrunner a Targeting Computer...

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Why not just Howlrunner with a bunch of Academy TIEs?

I know it sounds a bit lackluster, but it might be the simplest way to achieve this. And you can give Howlrunner a Targeting Computer...

Weak starting point and no action economy. Howlrunner's buff doesn't work on herself, and a targeting computer requires getting a target lock the turn before you shoot. And with only a 2-dice gun to start with you're spending a lot for a marginal improvement over a ship with a natural 3-dice gun.

What about a tie SF? Toss on LWF and you have a ghetto defender

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Why not just Howlrunner with a bunch of Academy TIEs?

I know it sounds a bit lackluster, but it might be the simplest way to achieve this. And you can give Howlrunner a Targeting Computer...

Weak starting point and no action economy. Howlrunner's buff doesn't work on herself, and a targeting computer requires getting a target lock the turn before you shoot. And with only a 2-dice gun to start with you're spending a lot for a marginal improvement over a ship with a natural 3-dice gun.

Agreed. But it'll be cheap. You can pimp out the rest of your list with the points you save. I always try not to have a one-trick pony list.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Agreed. But it'll be cheap. You can pimp out the rest of your list with the points you save. I always try not to have a one-trick pony list.

The issue is that it's not cheap, because you have a lot of wasted points.

1) With only a 2-die primary and no focus + TL stack Howlrunner's shot is nowhere near scary enough to justify. 4 dice with focus is 3 hits on average, while 3 dice with focus is 2.25. That's a lot of work for only a marginal improvement over a generic 3-dice ship, especially when crack shot is available (and Howlrunner is never going to live long enough to shoot more than once anyway).

2) Howlrunner and swarm leader are completely opposed in purpose here, Howlrunner wants to buff a swarm to murder you with a giant pile of efficient attacks while swarm leader wants to put everything into one big attack. So pretty much no matter how you fly the list you've got inefficient points spent on something.

In short, I think this idea is falling into the trap of getting tunnel vision on one particular upgrade instead of asking why you want to take it in the first place.

You may be right.

I'm just not jazzed about Wave 10. So personally, I'm not overly excited about Swarm Leader. I think Inspiring Recruit is the card I find the coolest. Goes to show.

What do y'all think about Chiraneau or one of the other Decimators?

Three dice turret to start with, can fleet officer or op spec (possibly with ex interface)to get focus & TL in certain turns ...

Thrown together idea:

99 points
------

Commander Kenkirk (51)
VT-49 Decimator (44), Swarm Leader (3), Inspiring Recruit (1), Operations Specialist (3)

“Howlrunner” (21)
TIE Fighter (18), Stealth Device (3)

Black Squadron Pilot (15)
TIE Fighter (14), Crack Shot (1)

Academy Pilot (12)

Fly the fighters in formation with Kenkirk (or Oicunn for 2 fewer points) for the first pass. Howlrunner can probably be relied on to miss to give the Decimator the free focus and 1 reroll w/o spending the TL. Academy as a blocker/ evade battery.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or this:
100 points

“Howlrunner” (22)
TIE Fighter (18), Shield Upgrade (4)

Black Squadron Pilot (15) x 2
TIE Fighter (14), Crack Shot (1)

Captain Oicunn (48)
VT-49 Decimator (42), Swarm Leader (3), Operations Specialist (3).

This way if Howlrunner fails to miss, one of the blacks can probably do it ...