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So I was checking up on the latest rumors in 40K over at Spikey Bits and saw that Gulliman is going to be the next primarch to make an appearance on the battlefield in the 41st millennium. I thought, that's cool I guess, you know, whatevs. As I scrolled down I saw that apparently he has some friends with him, specifically Cipher. Now being a long time DA player I was like, WTF?!?!. Then upon closer inspection of the leaked pictures Gulliman has Cipher and another dude by him and there's also a picture that talks about Gulliman and his ADVISORS. Now I'm like, ok, there's no way that Cipher, the most hated of the Fallen, hunted for 10,000 years by the DA is going to pop up whispering in Gulliman's ear. Here's a link to the spikey bits article [/url]https://spikeybits.com/2017/02/march-white-dwarf-images-spotted.html[url].

I just wanted to see what the rest of the Dakka community thinks about this. I mean I've been following the rumors about 1 legion going rogue/traitor and 1 traitor legion going back to the Imperium. At first I was like no way, but now i'm kind of thinking my beloved DA may end up on the wrong end of a showdown with Gulliman thanks to some Cipher manipulation. Questions I pose to you, the reader:

1) Do you think it's possible Cipher gets the imperium to turn against the DA (TS/Prospero type thing) where they are forced to go rouge since, you know, they've kept the fact that half their damn legion went to the darkside for 10k years?

2) Why the hell is Cipher even with Gulliman and even then, why would Gulliman trust him?

2) There's been talk of some new supplements for the DA coming, could this possibly be setting up a return of the Lion and possibly a confrontation with Gulliman/the Imperium?

3) What are you're theories on how this could all shake out?

I'm really interested to see some other peoples thought/theories/perspective on this!

I think Cypher is going to kill Abaddon.

I'm sure they will come up with something that might halfway explain it.

I'm not gonna question it too much, Cypher and the Fallen have long been a favorite of mine (and the best thing about the DA).

@ JamesY - I've heard some rumors that he will. I'm wondering if it's to possibly take his place or to show that he's been loyal to the IoM this whole time. I'm really leaning towards the latter but considering they told us who Cipher was in the last DA HH book i'm not so sure. Then again, it's been so long there may be another Cipher at this point.

Then again i'm also thinking he's been working on some master plan that no one else is even remotely aware of and will just disappear after he gets what he needs.

@VIctor - I'm with you on Cypher and the Fallen. That's what made me go with DA back in the day to begin with haha.

Yeah, I specifically picked up DA models to use in a Chaos army as Fallen.

Honestly what Cypher is doing there could be any number of things, I just hope it ends up being something awesome.

1. Yeah, that wouldn't be too hard. No one really likes people who keep secrets, and the Dark Angels have proven time and time again that they put their secrets over their loyalty to the Imperium.
2. He is probably with Guilliman because Guilliman is kinda important and probably the most influential person in the Imperium. Cypher has a role to play in the coming events, and Guilliman is undoubtedly key to those events. It makes sense for Cypher to want to be close to him. I don't know if and how he gained Guilliman's trust, but he is unlikely to know who Cypher is and the fact that he is considered a traitor by the DA. It is not like the DA have ever told anyone about him.
3. Cypher will make everyone believe that the Lion was the true traitor while Luther was the true loyalist. Cypher will rescue Luther, the Lion will re-awaken and the Dark Angels will be forced to take sides, leading to the Unforgiven splitting in pro-Lion and pro-Luther factions. As to who really was the traitor, that will remain ambiguous.

I would love a story like that. Two rival groups of Dark Angels each believing they are the true loyalists and seeking to redeem themselves would provide so much potential for dramatic stories about loyalty, betrayal, intrigue and delicious grey and gray morality.

I could definitely get behind something like that. And agreed, Guilliman won't know anything about the Fallen and Cypher will definitely want to be on his coat tails for whatever he's planning.I guess I just don't want to be forced into chaos.

Here's some of the thoughts running around my head.

1) Luther is constantly rambling about how the Lion will return one day to forgive him. Could something like this be coming where the Lion forgives Luther, reuniting the Fallen (that didn't jump off into the deep end of the Chaos pool) with the DA? How would Azreal and the rest take this? Could they ever fight WITH the Fallen after hunting them for the better part of 10,000 years?

2) The Lion isn't exactly the forgiving type so would this really play out or would the Lion just (try to)kill him anyways?

3) I don't think Guilliman will question the Lion's loyalty based off of what's happened so far in the HH series, but like you've said, the DA have killed a loooooottttt of people to keep their secret and Guilliman will definitely have a problem with that. Would the Lion, if he comes back, Side with his brother over his legion? I honestly can't guess at this because he's killed a few of his own guys for questioning his orders, like telling his librarius to forget about the Edict of Nikea.

4) Or, because gaks really hit the fan, would the secret come out, and everyone just kind of overlook it since loosing an entire first found chapter be to big a blow following the loss of Cadia? Maybe this explains why there's fallen running with Guilliman and Cypher in the cover. They don't like the IoM run by normal people but they can get behind Guilliman, plus the alternative is way worse.


Also thought of this

In the Dark Angels book series, they capture Cipher. He helps them stop Astelan from going back in time through a worm hole to snatch all of the DA on Caliban in the mist of the battle that destroyed Caliban. Essentially Astelan was going to use them to recreate the DA Legion in the 41st millennium. IIRC Cypher however DOES get through the worm hole to go back in time. Is it possible he saw all of this coming and went back to snatch up a lot of loyal if misguided (by Luther) DA and has just been waiting for the 13th Black Crusade to kick off so that he now has 10,000 "Fallen" DA to give the IoM? Maybe that's how he get's the Lion's sword in the first place and is able to wake him up/free Luther?

Cypher and the Fallen are the actual DA loyalists, the regular DA are actually quite bad, as bad as the GK; murdering their brothers to keep their secrets etc.

1/2) yeah i think thats his entire purpose, to split the imperium

3/4) i think, or at least hope, gulliman is the only loyalist primarch we get for a long while. im willing to bet imperial schism with gulliman, ultramarines and friends on "imperium secondus/ultramar" side and dark angels, inquisition etc on the other with release of 8th edition.

The DA are traitor meme needs to die already. One book with a Fallen calling them Traitor, and ten+ affirming their loyalty.

We might see a forgiveness for the Fallen though - at least the ones that aren't Chaos tainted.

What I hope to see more is forgiveness for the Unforgiven - that Cypher (who by now is probably Holguin) can get the Emperor or the Lion to allow the DA redemption, and end the hunt.

arvendragon wrote:
The DA are traitor meme needs to die already. One book with a Fallen calling them Traitor, and ten+ affirming their loyalty.

We might see a forgiveness for the Fallen though - at least the ones that aren't Chaos tainted.

What I hope to see more is forgiveness for the Unforgiven - that Cypher (who by now is probably Holguin) can get the Emperor or the Lion to allow the DA redemption, and end the hunt.

Yea, I don't why that keeps popping up, they've been confirmed loyal over and over again ("I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward" says hello).

Even Luther seeks forgiveness. It's likely that many Fallen like Cypher actually seek forgiveness but know the current DA won't forgive them, so they keep running or aiding them in other ways (the Cypher's actions end up strengthening the Imperium and aiding the DA in the long run for example). The Fallen also originally turned against the Imperium to save Caliban, as they believed it was doomed otherwise.

 ILegion wrote:
1) Luther is constantly rambling about how the Lion will return one day to forgive him. Could something like this be coming where the Lion forgives Luther, reuniting the Fallen (that didn't jump off into the deep end of the Chaos pool) with the DA? How would Azreal and the rest take this? Could they ever fight WITH the Fallen after hunting them for the better part of 10,000 years?

This is what I'd like to see. The Lion returning and making them whole again.

Cypher appeared Just in time to Make Sure the Lion Helm doesnt Fall Into the Hands of Dome filthy orc.
This Made me believe he is not entirely evil and still aids the chapter from the shadows.

I believe in earlier versions of the DA Codex you were even able to field him, unlike now.

I Hope the Lion Returns soon and Cypher becomes a Part oder the Dark Angels again.

PS: written on my mobile, expect Dome autocorrect issues.

Yeah I really want the Lion to wake up and get a cool new model. I also think it'd be awesome if he did reunite all the fallen with the DA. Rowboat wouldn't be to happy about a Primarch having that many space marines but eh. That goes back to the whole IoM splitting though.

If they do bring back the Lion though with Cypher by Gilliman, there's so many ways they can split the IoM apart it's not funny.

I think it was a Cypher special rule that he could be fielded in a DA army (or in a Chaos army with a unit of DA).

I think Cypher is the Lion's consciousness made manifest while his body is comatose in the Rock. Just like all the Watchers in the Dark showing up, Cypher showed up. He's got the sword and the gun of the lion because he is the lion.

In my mind, there's a reason Cypher, Gulliman, and the GK model are being released together.

Part of Cypher's lore has always been the fact he's carrying the Lion's sword on his back with the intention of returning it to Terra. The text we saw from White Dwarf talks about Gulliman coming to terms with the reality of the Imperium, and the need to 'save' it.

This looks to me like a group with an agenda to release the Emperor from his mortal bonds. Gulliman is going to be disgusted to see what has become of the Imperium and realize the only way to restore what they fought for is to release his essence back into the warp.

Considering GW is releasing new Eldar Gods, this would sort of make sense. A God for the Empire of Man.

I wish cypher was part of a chaos box. Makes zero sense to have him with girlyman.

I do believe cypher will "kill" Abaddon to move him along at least his mortal form similar to Archaon in age of sigmar. I fully expect abs to re-emerge bigger and vengeancy

Then my next question would be that if/when Cipher kills Abadoon, is he doing it to try and break the 13th Black Crusade and throw it into chaos (pun intended) or is he doing it because he some how knows that Abaddon is going to come back mad as hell and waaaayyyy meaner?

I think he's definitely going to kill him now. From the rumors and stuff I've seen, including one where the GW guys have been joking about how Abaddon is going to die to a bolt pistol.

Is Cypher even a single person?

I tend to think its more like a Title that certain exceptional individuals over time among Dark Angels take up to fulfill certain tasks in that era

think of it like the "pope"

That would make more sense then it being one single guy..throughout 10,000 years

I've had some thoughts...

I think there is the possibility that neither the Fallen Angels or the Dark Angels are traitors. The Dark Angel pursuit of the Fallen Angels may be more about suppressing the truth than any actual guilt. Maybe they were unwilling participants or just fooled, but in a universe of "no excuses" that doesn't matter much.

IF this Cypher is in fact the same one from the Heresy era... is it possible that Guillaman knows him or even just by reputation from the Heresy era, or maybe having met him? Maybe to Guillaman the title of Cypher just carries that weight; by virtue of being a position created by the Emperor maybe Guillaman holds it to the same esteem he'd hold the head of the Adeptus Custodes or some other trusted position.

I think Cypher will kill the Emperor to trigger the Emperor's perpetual regeneration abilities... that the Emperor will regain the ability to actively communicate and take command of the Imperium but will remain bound to the Golden Throne for the foreseeable future.

 aka_mythos wrote:

I think Cypher will kill the Emperor to trigger the Emperor's perpetual regeneration abilities... that the Emperor will regain the ability to actively communicate and take command of the Imperium but will remain bound to the Golden Throne for the foreseeable future.

Way back in the dying days of late 2nd edition, I went for an interview at GW during my Uni summer hols (decided to go and work for Mars instead as they gave you unlimited free chocolate). I got some ideas that the developers were bouncing around at the time for the forthcoming 3rd edition and one of them was advancing the setting. In this scenario, Cypher would have reached Terra and slain the Emperor, thus triggering the Rhana Dundra and the return of the loyalist Primarchs.

In the end, Andy Chambers won the debate and 3rd edition came out with a largely static fluff setting. Looks like they have decided to take the idea and run with it, (at least in part). I could believe that the Big E ends up dead. The question is whether Guilliman would risk it. He was largely content to follow the Emperor's orders and probably knows less about the Emperor's true nature than many of the Primarchs. Unlike Sanguinius, Dorn and Khan, he didn't even get to speak to the Emperor following the outbreak of the Heresy.

I think the 13 crusade will achieve its goal of break the resistance to the eye of storm. Cypher will kill abaddon and he will reappear as a Daemon Prince supported by The Primarch daemon Mortarion.

Russ will be found after the wolves head into the eye of storm following the wulfen.

At some point Slaanesh needs to be reborn with Fulgrim leading the charge as well. At which point Dorn and the Lion will come into it somehow. Not too sure how this bit will go though. Maybe with the bonds of Cadia unleashing the Eye of Terror to release more warp into the universe possibly

 aka_mythos wrote:
IF this Cypher is in fact the same one from the Heresy era... is it possible that Guillaman knows him or even just by reputation from the Heresy era, or maybe having met him? Maybe to Guillaman the title of Cypher just carries that weight; by virtue of being a position created by the Emperor maybe Guillaman holds it to the same esteem he'd hold the head of the Adeptus Custodes or some other trusted position.

I think this could definitely be a possibility but it depends on where they take the Dark Angels with the Horus Heresy series. In the last book about the Dark Angels, Zahareal pretty much kills the marine that was named the Lord Cypher and assumes the mantel. If Zahareal is now Cypher then it's very possible he and Guilliman met at some point during the Crusdae before Zahareal was "exiled" to Caliban. This assumes of course that Zahareal also tells him who he really is. Other than that, he'd only know of the position known as Lord Cypher I'd imagine and with the way the Lion loved to keep his secrets, he may not know anything about it really. Plus if he put in one astropathic communication to the Rock I'm sure Azreal would have some stuff to tell him about it. Or nothing haha. Not sure how he could stand up to a Primarch though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LightKing wrote:
Is Cypher even a single person?

I tend to think its more like a Title that certain exceptional individuals over time among Dark Angels take up to fulfill certain tasks in that era

think of it like the "pope"

That would make more sense then it being one single guy..throughout 10,000 years

It's definitely just a title but with the Lion going into sleep mode and Caliban being destroyed no one really appoints a new Lord Cypher. Cypher would have to be appointing a new one throughout time. And in the Dark Angels trilogy Cypher is able to go back in time (i think?) through the worm hole that's showing Caliban being destroyed, which, if i'm remembering that correctly, is at least one example of time travel by him. In fact he seems to be the only person in the book to even know what's going on plus he says in it that the Dark Angels have caught him 2 or 3 other times and released him, for what who knows but maybe a similar thing? So I think It's also possible that he's figured out how to jump around through time on purpose instead of just going into the warp or something and hanging out for a while to pop out a few centuries later.

I'm still leaning toward he and Guilliman are going to bring the Emperor back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think Cypher will kill the Emperor to trigger the Emperor's perpetual regeneration abilities... that the Emperor will regain the ability to actively communicate and take command of the Imperium but will remain bound to the Golden Throne for the foreseeable future.

I do love this theory, probably my favorite so far. I've been trying to figure out how this would affect the table top because, you know, the Emperor would have to be a total beast and I don't think I want him on the board. It would take some of the fun away. Beside, he's always been this mythical being that people can only imagine, not see destroying armies by himself. Even in 30k he's not running around, at least not yet. Having him come back but still being stuck on the throne is probably the best way to do it IF that's what ends up happening.