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Storm of fire warlord trait targets 1 unit within 12 inches and gives them rending if they are drawn from the same chapter as my warlord. My question is... What if the units has mostly same chapter , with independent characters from another chapter or army? I would be happy to say just the same chapter models get the benefit , but if I am committing to build an army this way , I want to know that it works 100%. Thank you.

As long as the unit the IC have joined are from the same chapter as the warlord then the whole unit benefits from it including the IC

From Codex Space Marines, in the Chapter Tactics rules (emphasis mine):

If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactic.

You've also got this from the FAQ:

Q: Do Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Dark Angels all count as having Chapter Tactics for the purposes of joining allied Space Marine units? That is, does my Ultramarines unit lose the benefits of Chapter Tactics if they are
joined by Mephiston?
A: If a unit from any of these Factions joins a unit with the Space Marines Faction, or vice versa, neither unit benefits from Chapter Tactics

It doesn't really go into detail for non-space marine armies (an Imperial Guard Commissar for example), but you'll struggle against the above rules as a precedent.

Were not talking about chapter tactics. We are talking about chapter as in the detachment that the unit comes from.


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A Devastator squad from Ultramarines is still from the Ultramarines even when a White Scars Chaplain joins them. He doesn´t lose his chapter because of it.

What I am trying to do is build the old draigo star. Its draigo from grey knights , tigirius from ultramarines and some centurion devestators. which , for the purpose of this are ultra marines. So I would have an ultramarine squad of dev cents joined by an ultramarine hq who fires the ability in question. This would normally be a non issue but I am having the grey knights lord of war kaldor draigo joining the unit. The ability requires that the target unit is the same chapter as the "caster". So has the chapter of this unit , by definition , changed due to an independent character joining it?

How do you determine which Chapter a unit/model is from without referencing the Chapter Tactics rule?

 rawne2510 wrote:
Were not talking about chapter tactics. We are talking about chapter as in the detachment that the unit comes from.


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A Devastator squad from Ultramarines is still from the Ultramarines even when a White Scars Chaplain joins them. He doesn´t lose his chapter because of it.

The quote about a unit containing models drawn from two different Chapters counting as neither Chapter would still be relevant. It means the unit doesn't count as being drawn from the same Chapter when you go to use the Warlord trait.

Yes it would work. Since its a warlord trait, not chapter tactics.

Like Cent Devs with another chapters IC ok, Another chapters unit joined by an ultra marine HQ, then no.

Lungpickle wrote:
Yes it would work. Since its a warlord trait, not chapter tactics.

Like Cent Devs with another chapters IC ok, Another chapters unit joined by an ultra marine HQ, then no.

Yes, it's a Warlord trait, but it's a trait that has you reference the Chapter of the unit you are applying the Warlord trait to. When it comes time to see if the Warlord trait works, and you're checking to see what Chapter the unit is, you have to follow the rule "If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactic." That's not merely a rule for Chapter Tactics, it tells you that for a unit with models from multiple chapters, it counts as neither Chapter. That means the unit doesn't count as being the chapter that the Warlord is from, and therefore the unit won't get rending.

With arguments like that I give up. Lawyer it as you like . They are Ultramarines no matter who is with them.

They are considered to be no chapter only for chapter tactics to effect them. A unit doesn´t change it chapter because someone joins them or leaves them.

 rawne2510 wrote:
With arguments like that I give up. Lawyer it as you like . They are Ultramarines no matter who is with them.

They are considered to be no chapter only for chapter tactics to effect them. A unit doesn´t change it chapter because someone joins them or leaves them.

Except this bit from the Chapter Tactics rule:

"For example, ‘an Ultramarines unit’ refers to ‘a unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter.’ If an Ultramarines Tactical Squad is joined by an Imperial Fists Chaplain, it counts as neither an Ultramarines unit nor an Imperial Fists unit."

/thread

but this only takes effect if it is another chapter from the space marine codex then. As none of the marine armies outside of that book have chapter tactics??


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Again this is specific to chapter tactics and not the unit being stripped of all its heraldry from being from that chapter

Apologies; I missed the reference to other armies in OP's question. The FAQ deals with other "Space Marine" Factions:

"Q: Do Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Dark Angels all count as having Chapter Tactics for the purposes of joining allied Space Marine units? That is, does my Ultramarines unit lose the benefits of Chapter Tactics if they are joined by Mephiston?
A: If a unit from any of these Factions joins a unit with the Space Marines Faction, or vice versa, neither unit benefits from Chapter Tactics."

Other Factions are not mentioned. The test question though is, "Does the unit have the Chapter Tactics special rule and is it drawn from the Ultramarines Chapter?"

It's quite arguable that one model in the unit not correctly answering that test question makes the unit fail overall.

Hmmmm


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It loses the benefits of chapter tactics I accept but in my opinion that doesn´t stop the unit from still being a specific chapter just gains no benefits. It does negate a ultramarine unit from being ultramarines which is waht the warlord trait in this instance requires.

Your opinion flies in the face of the rule that states you do not ocunt as being from either chapter
If you lose chapter tactics (ultramarines) you are NOT an ultra unit any longer, as the codex specifically states the only way to say what chapter a unit belongs to is to loo, st what chapter tactics it has.

Here is the thing.
If you create your detachment all models must be from the same faction.
If you include model with the Chapter Tactics special rule in your SM detachment the detachment becomes that Chapter and all models are drawn from it (even those without CT rule) - that is written in Chapter Tactics special rule.
If your SM detachment don't have models with Chapter Tactics (Raptor Wing, Storm Wing, etc) it is Chapterless, BUT you are allowed to draw them from Iron Hands (because only CT(IH) allow it). Here is my question to GW FAQ included in Official SM FAQ (question is poorly written so the answer is not as clear as I wanted it to be):

Q: What rule allows one to say that a Formation composed entirely of vehicles belongs to a specific Chapter? Can we claim that a Raptor Wing Formation from War Zone Damocles: Kauyon is an Iron Hands Formation, and if so, based on what rule? Can an Iron Hands Warlord with the Storm of Fire Warlord Trait nominate a vehicle from the Raptor Wing Formation? How about vehicles from the Warlord’s Detachment, e.g. a Whirlwind?
A: If a Space Marines Detachment or Formation consists solely of vehicles that do not have the Chapter Tactics special rule, you can choose for them to be drawn from the Iron Hands (do this when choosing your army). An Iron Hands Warlord with the Storm of Fire Warlord Trait could nominate a vehicle from such a Formation or Detachment drawn from the Iron Hands in this way. The Warlord in this example could instead nominate vehicles from their own Detachment, if that Detachment was an Iron Hands Detachment (i.e. all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Iron Hands). Note that you cannot do this with vehicles from other Chapters – the Iron Hands (and their Successor Chapters) have a unique relationship with the machines that accompany them to war.

But I think you'll see the point

Anyway being "drawn from Chapter" is linked to Chapter Tactics, but only duirng creating detachment. Later models may loose their Chapter Tactics, but they were already "drawn from Chapter" and that is what Storm of Fire really needs: "unit (...) that is drawn from the same Chapter as your Warlord (...)".
That is why you are allowed to nominate Ultramarines (because of detachment) Whirlwind (without Chapter Tactics) as target of SoF.

However I don't know how to determine if unit is still "drawn from same Chapter" if it is composed with mixed detachment/faction models

 rawne2510 wrote:
With arguments like that I give up. Lawyer it as you like . They are Ultramarines no matter who is with them.

They are considered to be no chapter only for chapter tactics to effect them. A unit doesn´t change it chapter because someone joins them or leaves them.

Try reading the quote again. It's not only for Chapter Tactics; it specifically states that the unit counts as neither chapter. They list not getting Chapter Tactics as a consequence of the rule that they don't count as either chapter, but that is only a consequence of the rule itself. Not being able to be affected by Storm of Fire is another consequence of that action.

For rules purposes, the unit does not count as any Chapter. If you're told you don't get to count their Chapter, it doesn't matter what Chapter they had been since you don't count them as any Chapter. If you're told you can't count Ultramarines as Ultramarines if (for example) an Iron Hands IC joins them, then for rules purposes - including using Storm of Fire, they obviously are not treated as Ultramarines at that point. That's clear from the rules quotation, and your insinuation with "lawyer it as you like" is unwarranted.


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 rawne2510 wrote:
but this only takes effect if it is another chapter from the space marine codex then. As none of the marine armies outside of that book have chapter tactics??


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Again this is specific to chapter tactics and not the unit being stripped of all its heraldry from being from that chapter

Forgeworld has plenty of Chapter Tactics for different Space Marine Chapters that aren't in Codex: Space Marines.