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Hello, Dakka people. This thread is inspired from a discussion I had with Dew, a fellow Necron player! He likes Immortals, Deathmarks (the most, I believe) and he's almost set on including a Judicator Battalion in his list (since, he already has the Stalker). The following lists are some examples for a necron decurion (which he likes, I believe) including Immortals/Deathmarks/J.Battalion that are also competent in any given meta (since we have no info about his opponents etc).
"The Monolith Deathmark/Battalion" (Main, 1.5k points)
Kind of impossible at lower points, because the Royal Court formation is not Aux and therefore, cannot make a Decurion with it. I'd go with "Combo Efficiency" (secondary).
There's more and I might edit some more. But this is a rough estimation of my inerpretation of some of the Necrons' lists' archetypes. I, personally, prefer "Combo Efficiency" (I really like Lychguard and they're good at what they do, even without too much support) and the "Monolith Battalion" list, as a more "fun" list to play. The "Shooting Menace" should also be strong, I believe. It's up to you really. Those are only rough sketches and should be treated as such. Play them (proxy if you have to) and change anything that works for you better! I tried to include Battalion and Deathmarks as much as possible and combine them in different ways. The Immortals are way harder to make use of(They are way more expensive than warriors, meaning using them as large blobs of Gauss isn't as effective. They only gain +1 to their saves, which is not that great, given that they don't usually get to be the targets of low AP weaponry). Playstyle wise, I haven't figured out how to use them in more effective ways other than the "Cheap 5 man troop squad that chases objectives and is hard to die". I only managed to make a combo out of them in the last list and I'm not entirely sure if it's worth it's points. Although, it should be fun to try. Their RP (+ rerolls from Overlord) and good saves should make sure they survive most things, even 1 turn of assault, before they can VoD away next turn. Tomorrow or the day after, I might include some extra tips under every list. I encourage others to also make 1.5k/1k lists if you guys want and I'll edit them in this post. Any comments etc are obviously welcome.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/02/09 16:12:36
"After Aeons of slumber the Necrotyr awakend to harvest the galaxy anew... but realizing they will never be Ultramarines, the Necrotyr descended into stasis once more."
Wow dude, this is awesome. Thank you so much for spending all this time putting these together! I will be pouring over these experimenting with the different combos. You're the man
The one with the royal court might be the most effective as nemesor, orikan and obyron are really really good together attached to any unit specially Lychguard
Why is Nemesor good together with obyron and orikan in the same unit...? The only synergy they have is if they are not in the same unit and Obyron veils to Zahndrekh.
Why would you ever put Zahndrekh in a Lychguard unit? His shooting attacks are lost, because for most of the rounds (exept when assaulting), the lychguard are going to want to run. He adds no survivability, since they are quite survivable anyway with Obyron's 2+ save, Orikan's rerolls and Look Out Sirs. And his Counter Tactics are too situational. Not to mention, they're probably overkill in an already kitted out Lychstar.
"After Aeons of slumber the Necrotyr awakend to harvest the galaxy anew... but realizing they will never be Ultramarines, the Necrotyr descended into stasis once more."
I don't think he meant put them all in the same unit, just run them for Royal Court.
Speaking of, would it be better to use Obyron instead of Lord to get the teamwork bonuses with Nemesor in the "Legion" list? And adjust points/list accordingly?
I'm surprised nobody has screamed for Harvest yet lol
I'm leaning towards trying out the "Combo" and "Monolith" lists first. Probably Combo. Run the OL/Nemesor solo or attach them to which unit?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/11 23:51:57
I do mean put them all in the same unit of lychguard.
The squad re-rolls 1s and has more than 1 character with a 2+ armour save to abuse that.
Staff of Light is 12" range, in 80% of my games Nemesor doesn't get to shoot it lest the enemy get close. The other 20% is when I put him in a unit that wants to rush the enemy and thus puts him close enough to make shots before assaulting. So no you don't 'lose his shots' by putting him with lychguard, quite the opposite that's the best way to make his shooting count, soften them up and assault.
Nemesor also can boost the entire unit with warlord traits. Zealot on a unit launching an assault is a welcomed boost I'd say. There's a trait to improve running and charging and another trait to improve assaults in Command Traits all to the benefit of his unit.
I'd dare say, you haven't given this enough thought. Try it out. I used nemesor + lychguard in my last game and won the game 8 to 2 (kill points). Re-rolling to hit on warscythes (or even hyperphase blades) is brutal.
Dew wrote: I don't think he meant put them all in the same unit, just run them for Royal Court.
Speaking of, would it be better to use Obyron instead of Lord to get the teamwork bonuses with Nemesor in the "Legion" list? And adjust points/list accordingly?
I'm surprised nobody has screamed for Harvest yet lol
I'm leaning towards trying out the "Combo" and "Monolith" lists first. Probably Combo. Run the OL/Nemesor solo or attach them to which unit?
In the Legion list, the Immortals that you want to bump arround are already rocking a Veil (through the Overlord). I don't believe a second one will offer too much. Dropping the first is quite a problem, since it's the only way you can make use of the tax that is the Overlord from the Reclmation Legion. Besides that, Obyron wants to be in combat and the Immortals don't. Usually, it's not very smart to mix things like that. Also, the lord is quite essential to this unit since he is carrying the Gauntlet. This Immortal squad can join game via Nightscythe, deploy almost anywhere in the table, burn a squad to death (like a bikestar, or anything really annoying) with the Str7 AP2 flamer + the rapid fire volley and next turn Veil away to safety/objectives.(even if they get locked in combat, which they should be able to survive)
I haven't mentioned the Harvest, personally, because you have specifically stated you don't like any of the models/units in the Canoptek Harvest formation, so it would be kind of fruitless. You can totally make a decent list without it.
In the "Combo" list, you want to run the Overlord with the Lychguard to make a tough (They're essentially rocking 2++) unit that is going to act as a deterrent. You deploy it aggressively in Turn 1, block an entire path for your opponent, then in the movement phase you veil and force him to react. It's not really lethal in combat, although it's more than capable of eating marines and the like, so tarpitting IS something you should worry about, but not from a lot of units. Besides that, it's only a 300~ points unit, so getting tarpitted is not that big of a deal, and you can tarpit things yourself, like Wraithknights or the like. For Zahndrekh, I usually thought of him joinning a big squad of warriors that he can tank for and make a legit threat out of it (especially with the Ghost Ark support). This squad of warriors will be able to steal buffs, tarpit things and survive ALL kinds of things with RP, Zahndrekh's tanking and the Ghost Ark. You can, however, put him in the Lychguard unit for the added survivability and rules(Especially since this Lychguard unit is lacking a 2+ armour save character to soak some shooting). You can switch arround depending on your games, try it out yourself!
Akaiyou wrote: I do mean put them all in the same unit of lychguard.
The squad re-rolls 1s and has more than 1 character with a 2+ armour save to abuse that.
Why would it be more of an abuse to a 2+ armour save than a 3+ one? (Mathematically, the difference is negligible(2.7%~))
Also, the unit is already rocking Obyron for a 2+ save.
Staff of Light is 12" range, in 80% of my games Nemesor doesn't get to shoot it lest the enemy get close. The other 20% is when I put him in a unit that wants to rush the enemy and thus puts him close enough to make shots before assaulting. So no you don't 'lose his shots' by putting him with lychguard, quite the opposite that's the best way to make his shooting count, soften them up and assault.
The only way to make use of the warriors you run in a Decurion and not just pay them as tax is to deploy them aggressively. Really aggressively. Play aggressively, force them on your enemies. Make him shoot/assault them. They are going to find themselves in 12", and moreso, they're going to benefit from the buffs Zahndrekh offers. This isn't 5th edition where warriors are either fragile or your only way of capturing objectives. Camping necron warriors is one of the biggest mistakes people make when playing decurion, because they're far too used to old playstyles.
Nemesor also can boost the entire unit with warlord traits. Zealot on a unit launching an assault is a welcomed boost I'd say. There's a trait to improve running and charging and another trait to improve assaults in Command Traits all to the benefit of his unit.
There's only 2 traits that will benefit the Lychguard unit:
Spoiler:
"4 - Master of the Vanguard: Your Warlord, and all friendly units within 12", add 1" to the distance that they can move when they Run or Charge. "
and
Spoiler:
"6 - Coordinated Assault: In the Assault phase, your Warlord and all friendly units within 12" of him reroll To Hit rolls of 1."
Due to Zahndrekh's rules', he can ony use those two traits once per game ("Zahndrekh cannot choose the same Warlord Trait more than once per game. ")
He cannot give Zealot to the Lychguard, since he has to use Zealot Trait for turn 1 (again, due to his rules) and he cannot use it again for later turns, since he already has used it. Adding 1" to the assault range is very situational, since most games 1" will not matter. The rerolls of 1s in hit rolls sounds very deadly, however, you have to realise a Lychstar with a MasterCrafted Voidreaper, a WS 6 Warscythe and Orikan's rerollable attacks doesn't really benefit too much. Only the swords really benefit from that rule and you don't rely on swords to get things done, when you have 3 CC monsters in there. I think the star is deadly enough on its own to not benefit from this rule too much.
I'd dare say, you haven't given this enough thought. Try it out. I used nemesor + lychguard in my last game and won the game 8 to 2 (kill points). Re-rolling to hit on warscythes (or even hyperphase blades) is brutal.
That's true, it actually never crossed my mind, before. Putting a 150pts model that is not capable of CC in a CC deathstar with 0 shooting didn't cross my mind. I'll concede you actually raise some interesting points and he could have uses in there. It could work depending on the combination of the Lychstar etc. It's not my favorite idea, but it's not bad either.
"After Aeons of slumber the Necrotyr awakend to harvest the galaxy anew... but realizing they will never be Ultramarines, the Necrotyr descended into stasis once more."
He begins the game with Zealot by default. He doesn't choose it. His rule says he can only choose a warlord trait once per game.
Thus you should legally be able to choose the zealot trait later on. But even then, the trait granting extra run/charge range is great on ANY assault unit.
Ever since 6th edition the game has NOT been stactic gunlines. Having more than 1 character with a 2+ helps mitigate being shot at from the flanks if you are able to place them on different sides of the unit then an opponent can't so easily blindside you to avoid your 2+ re-rollable. THAT is why you bring more 2+ to the unit.
You said yourself Nemesor is an excellent tanking model vs shooting. When you spoke about keeping him with Warriors. He's all the better at protecting lychguard because they are more valuable! Keeping just 1 lychguard alive to make it into assault is really good for your force.
Lastly he's a force multiplier the problem is you look at him as just a poor CC model. I look at him and see the best character in the necron range able to force multiply literally ANYTHING in the army and make it better.
One more thing...aggressively using warriors is a good idea yes. But if you get yourself within 12" THAT frequently then your opponents aren't very capable. Warriors arent fast units unless your opponent does it out of necessity or stupidity, it should be difficult for you to get rapid fire off.
I wanted to chime in to agree with Akaiyou. Zandy is the best HQ choice in the whole book by far. He's an amazing force multiplier, especially when you consider how you can utilize the strategic traits (Conqueror of Cities, and the reserve modifying one) in concert with some of our formations. You haven't lived until you've played 3+ cover 4+ RP save Destroyer Cult hopping in and out of ruins to take shots. Each one goes from "pretty darn tough already" to "literally as tough as a canoptek harvest Wraith" because of his WL trait.
As for the WL trait change rules, also agree with Akaiyou here: he never CHOOSES it, which is the key bit.
If your friend likes the Judicator Battalion he should consider giving the Praetorians Night Scythes to take advantage of the formation rule, as it makes their Tesla fairly nasty.
Regarding immortals, I find they have little use aside from backfield objective camping. Warriors are more points efficient in terms of midfield foot-sloggers and also have a better transport if you want them to ride. Neither immortals nor warriors can easily survive being dropped on top of an enemy army or deathstar unit unless they have a character in the squad to give them fearless (like Zandy!). Anything else is asking to be swept off the board by any competent assault unit.
Regarding lychguard, I find they're a slow but scary deterrent that people tend to over-invest in. Putting more points into the unit in the form of an overlord or other characters kind of defeats the purpose. You want them to be just scary enough that people avoid them, but cheap enough that they don't reduce your offensive capabilities in other areas while doing so.
Akaiyou wrote: Ok real quick let me clarify some things.
He begins the game with Zealot by default. He doesn't choose it. His rule says he can only choose a warlord trait once per game.
Thus you should legally be able to choose the zealot trait later on. But even then, the trait granting extra run/charge range is great on ANY assault unit.
That's amazing insight, that I've been to blind to see. Thanks a lot, that makes Zahndrekh a way more viable choice for any unit he joins.
Ever since 6th edition the game has NOT been stactic gunlines. Having more than 1 character with a 2+ helps mitigate being shot at from the flanks if you are able to place them on different sides of the unit then an opponent can't so easily blindside you to avoid your 2+ re-rollable. THAT is why you bring more 2+ to the unit.
Yes. Adding a 2+ will add some toughness in case you are shot from the sides. (That's on a unit that has 3++, rerolls saves of 1, 4+++ rerolls 1) The added toughness is negligible, compared to the already really tough lychguard. Just how often do you see your Lychguard/Lychstar being the focus of attention shooting wise? When I bring Lychstars, most opponents will try to ignore them/feed them a unit or two. Shooting Lychstars is a very, very bad idea, that's just what they do best, they survive. My argument in this case being that a Lychstar is already way too expensive for what it does. You'll rarely see a Lychstar eat up as many points as it costs in assault. The Lychstar is 90% defense and 10% offense. Throwing more points to add to its defense is throwing more eggs in the same basket and not making them killier. They are not even guaranteed to assault anything with 6" movement (like the pleb infantry they are) and they cost about 1/3 of your army if you add Zandy. They're too expensive to just be a deterrent unit.
Obviously, that's my personal opinion. Like you said, it DOES add to their toughness. I just never saw my lychstar blew to death by shooting. Noone actually likes shooting it and it's not VERY hard to avoid/ignore it/feed it something useless. Boosting their survivability even further (and not their movement or offensive capabilities) seems just counter productive to me.
You said yourself Nemesor is an excellent tanking model vs shooting. When you spoke about keeping him with Warriors. He's all the better at protecting lychguard because they are more valuable! Keeping just 1 lychguard alive to make it into assault is really good for your force.
Yes, I did say that. However, I don't believe Lychguard are either going to get shot too much or that they are particularly valuable. They already are usefull as they can (being deterrents). The necron warriors are arguably more of a "tax" at a bare naked 130points at 10 models. I believe Zandy makes them way more usefull. He adds a LOT to their toughness since they lack invulnes, 2+ saves etc. They can also tarpit and do stuff they couldnt before and become dangerous in assault. He takes a tough to utilise unit and makes it a jack of all trades, a mid-field force. Deployed very aggressively it's going to draw fire and that's mostly what you need your warriors to do.
Lastly he's a force multiplier the problem is you look at him as just a poor CC model. I look at him and see the best character in the necron range able to force multiply literally ANYTHING in the army and make it better.
I don't disagree with that. He's a great force multiplier. He's also poor at CC. He can multiply everything and make it better. However, he's more useful multiplying certain things that benefit more from his rules, than other things. (Like, for example, he'd be a bad addition to wraiths, since he can only move 6" a turn). Obviously, what I'm supporting is that he is better off in warriors, than Lychguard. Not that he cannot benefit lychguard. Only, that it's not a very worthy investment.
One more thing...aggressively using warriors is a good idea yes. But if you get yourself within 12" THAT frequently then your opponents aren't very capable. Warriors arent fast units unless your opponent does it out of necessity or stupidity, it should be difficult for you to get rapid fire off.
Yes, and I never said they could always get rapidfire. But instead of camping 10 warriors at the back without getting any/or minimal shots off and hoping they grab some objective, you can put zahndrekh in, deploy them in the centre of the board (or some other tactically sound position, that you want to force), move 6" every turn and you're bound to be in rapidfire range by turn 2 or 3 or dead or assaulted. Depending on your opponents units, this is going to mean you probably finally used the 130 points of warriors you always saw as a tax previously.
ClutterEater wrote: I wanted to chime in to agree with Akaiyou. Zandy is the best HQ choice in the whole book by far. He's an amazing force multiplier, especially when you consider how you can utilize the strategic traits (Conqueror of Cities, and the reserve modifying one) in concert with some of our formations. You haven't lived until you've played 3+ cover 4+ RP save Destroyer Cult hopping in and out of ruins to take shots. Each one goes from "pretty darn tough already" to "literally as tough as a canoptek harvest Wraith" because of his WL trait.
He obviously is not the best HQ in the box, as he's not an auto-include in every list. There's a lot of good HQ's in our book, each to his own and Zahndrekh is a good all-arround multiplyer, but that's all he is.
Regarding lychguard, I find they're a slow but scary deterrent that people tend to over-invest in. Putting more points into the unit in the form of an overlord or other characters kind of defeats the purpose. You want them to be just scary enough that people avoid them, but cheap enough that they don't reduce your offensive capabilities in other areas while doing so.
We totally seem to agree on this. That was my whole point
"After Aeons of slumber the Necrotyr awakend to harvest the galaxy anew... but realizing they will never be Ultramarines, the Necrotyr descended into stasis once more."
I can see where Zahndrekh could be a very powerful and potent HQ. But would you say Zahndrekh is a better HQ for more experianced players? Since they would have more knowledge of other armies special rules and uses to apply with Zahndrekh's 24" Counter Tactics?
Same goes for Adaptive Tactics only not as much so. Having more familiarity with all of the available Warlord traits and when and where to best choose them to apply?
Seems like a newer less skilled player (like myself) would be better suited choosing an HQ with set special rules they can focus on when and where to use them best instead of having to keep track of so many different special rules at once. Especially when some of the rules can be stolen from an army they aren't even familair with.
I can see where Zahndrekh could be a very powerful and potent HQ. But would you say Zahndrekh is a better HQ for more experianced players? Since they would have more knowledge of other armies special rules and uses to apply with Zahndrekh's 24" Counter Tactics?
Same goes for Adaptive Tactics only not as much so. Having more familiarity with all of the available Warlord traits and when and where to best choose them to apply?
Seems like a newer less skilled player (like myself) would be better suited choosing an HQ with set special rules they can focus on when and where to use them best instead of having to keep track of so many different special rules at once. Especially when some of the rules can be stolen from an army they aren't even familair with.
That's actually a fair point. I always saw Zahndrekh as a "new player" HQ, because of the many ways you can use him as and a general-overall good HQ. (force multiplier etc)
The problem is that in a Reclamation Legion you need an overlord. That can either be Zanhdrekh, Trazyn, Anrakyr or a regular overlord. Trazyn is straight up bad, possibly the worst in the entire book. Anrakyr can be useful, if you give him the right things to support, but you don't have something he can buff (with relentless for example, which everyone already has in a Decurion). Or if you have a CSM Knight or Helldrake allied he can shoot from. But, besides that, in a TAC list he's an overpriced gimmick. If you exclude Zahndrekh for complexity, you're left with just regular overlords. The problem with overlords is that their upgrades and statline beg for assault. Most of the upgrades you can buy for overlords are CC weapons, added toughness, etc.
So, my point is, it's hard to fit a regular overlord in a shooty list. You'd need an assault unit to throw him in, in order for him to be useful. Most lists I gave you lack that, exept for Combo and Lychstar. This is why every list exept those two is rocking solo-Zahndy. So that you can have a "useful' overlord without having to get an assault unit. The other thing that could potentially also work in a shooty list without an assault unit could possibly be the CCB. That's because it adds another threat to the table, an AV13 target and also a fast unit. However, mind you, that's not a very "strong" option. Vehicles are highly vulnerable in this edition. If you want to find yourself in CC and move him offensively he will get blasted off quite easily. Even if he does make assault a solo-overlord is not that big of a threat versus most things. That'd also be a problem because of how easy you would give away "Slay the Warlord" in that case. I'd argue, without "Slay the Warlord", drawing a lot of fire could've been worth it, but now you also lose a point for it.
All in all, this exactly is why I whine all the time about the restrictions of having to include an "Overlord" in Decurions and not just any HQ you like. Any Cryptek/Lord could be used to a great extent to boost your list in more ways than any overlord can.
/rantover
Now, here's another proposal that might work for you, if you can't use Zahndrekh, albeit not a great one: I present to you
Space Cowboy
Spoiler:
Necron Overlord (80pts)
Artefact: The Veil of Darkness (25points)
Weapon: Staff of light (to be swapped with warscythe if points allow, otherwise try to keep him cheap) (0 points)
Upgrades: None (0points)
Total investment: 105points.
Role in the field: You use him in a unit of Immortals (preferably, because of the better saves). You make sure the unit you attach him to is small, so it has a small footprint (for deepstriking rules). MSU Immortals from the Rec.Legion are a good candidate for him. You procede to use that unit as objective hunter, or easy pray hunter (like killing markerlights for example). Don't use them too offensively or they will get blasted. You want to keep low profile, sneak objectives, be annoying and when things get difficult or you just need that 1 objective to pull ahead/win, you use the Veil to teleport. (Remember, you can use the Veil when locked in combat and just leave)
He's offering the immortals Rerolls on 1s on their RP and the ability to teleport. For 105 points, that's not a lot, but it's more useful than have a CC oriented warlord stuck in your warriors for an entire game without ever getting in close combat. He's also kind of adding value to the 85 points you spent on the Immortals for the Decurion, so he's more valuable like that. (Otherwise, the Immortals are quite hard to use effectively). He can also tank some shots thanks to having 3 Wounds (not too many though, huh). If you use that unit as low profile, there's high chances opponents will not focus fire on them and you might avoid giving up slay the warlord. If/When points allow it, you can give him a Warscythe, an invulnerable save, a handflamer (the cheap one, as the other one is an artefact and cannot be taken together with the VoD) or a Res.Orb. Depending on how many points you have, obviously. If you add the warscythe, a relentless unit with rapidfire weapons + assault (with warscythe) is enough to take Marines. But, its size and vulnerability still remain a problem. It's not a straight dakka unit still, it still needs finesse to pilot.
Hope that helped.
"After Aeons of slumber the Necrotyr awakend to harvest the galaxy anew... but realizing they will never be Ultramarines, the Necrotyr descended into stasis once more."
That's pretty much how I use my OL right now. With a small pack of Immortals grabbing objectives and keeping him away from STW points for the other team.
I thought about doing the same with Anrakyr so at least the Immortal possie he runs with are a little more beefed up. But I wont be able to take the Veil that way, and I find it super helpful for last minute objective grabs or retreating from a bad fight
Also I am an old school necron player (honestly I sort of play all factions...correction...most factions theres just too many nowadays)
As someone that's played necrons since 4th ed. I think Zandrekh is amazing and indeed I do believe he is the best HQ in the book hands down. None can offer the level of cheese in ANY list that he does.
A lot of our HQs and characters are gimmicky or serve just one purpose really well. But this guy is the only one that very much like his fluff and rules, is able to adapt to just about any situation it's an HQ that you can never go wrong with by bringing him, there's always something for him to do, a unit for him to buff.
The learning curve for him I don't think is hard since I picked up necrons again after like a year and half not playing them and I got used to his adaptive tactics rules pretty fast. Honestly there's like 2 or 3 traits that you need to learn and you'll do fine as those are the most commonly useful.
Re-roll misses of 1 from Command Traits is my #1 goto choice. As 'necron' pointed out you will want to press your opponent with warriors and shooting. You want a mobile gunline and getting those re-rolls on a very wide 12" radius is great! I won every single game I played with my necrons, some close games, others winning by landslide, all the ones I won by landslide I had Zandrekh leading.
Just try him out before you decide that he is too difficult. Finding out which traits are most useful isn't so hard once you learn to use the main 3 options.
In my games the most useful were:
Re-roll 1s in shooting - Command Trait
Move Through Cover/Stealth in ruins - Strategic Trait
Re-roll 1s in combat - Command Trait
Zealot
Basically always take the rerolls in shooting unless:
A) you know you are about to take a lot of heavy fire and you have most of your relevant units in ruins. 3+ cover is great!
B) You are about to engage in close combat with units near zandrekh and need an extra boost.
White Scars - 1200, 
Raven Guard - 110 pts, 
Imperium - 550 pts
