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The power creep is real fellow dakkanauts.
FW is full of gak at this point. Leman Russ can absolutely devastate Angron despite the two having actually fought once.
A fight lasting 5 seconds where Angron covered in fresh wounds almost instantly gains the upper hand, and readies himself to finish Russ. Two primarchs (Russ and Guilliman) who he devastated in a fight will statistically win against him (He wrecked Guilliman with makeshift weapons)
Angron needs to be remade.

Angron the Red Angel, Primarch of the World Eaters
Unit Type: Independent Character (Infantry)
WS:9 BS:5 S:8 T:7 W:6 I:7 A:7* LD:10 SV:3+/4++ 475 points
***Special Rules: Lord of the Red Sands, Primarch, Sire of the World Eaters, Rage, Furious Charge, Hatred (Everything)
***Wargear: Gorefather and Gorechild, Armor of Mars, The Spite Furnace, The Butcher's Nails
---Lord of the Red Sands: Angron must always issue a challenge whenever he is able to, and must always accept a challenge. Angron may issue and or accept as many challenges as he has attacks devoting at least 1 attack to each challenge. While in a challenge Angron is not removed as a casualty even if reduced to 0 wounds and suffers any number of unsaved wounds beyond that. As long as the challenge is ongoing Angron continues to make his attacks until the challenge ends, in which case if Angron has 0 or fewer wounds he is removed from play.
---The Butcher's Nails: For every infantry unit or character angron kills (read removes the last model from the unit or the last wound from the character) he gains 1 attack to a max of 10 attacks base (this can stack up to 4 times). Whenever Angron loses a wound in a challege(this does not take effect should Angron take an unsaved wound in a challenge after he has already been reduced to 0 wounds), Angron gains 1 attack in all further assault phases against that character (These additional attacks are only present against the character who wounded Angron, and when that challenge ends dissapear)
---Gorefather and Gorechild: S+1, AP:2, +1A(*already in profile), Melee, Armorbane, Murderous Strike
---Sire of the World Eaters: Angron grants all units with the Legiones Astartes (World Eaters) special rule within 12" of him the Fearless USR.
---Armor of Mars: Grants Angron a 3+ armor save, and a 4++ invulnerable save.

If this makes it seem like Angron is unbeatable in a Challenge (A fair fight one might say? ) that's pretty lore accurate, and is more or less the point.

Even though other primarchs are toned down from the lore, Angron does seem really weak. It's probably because he was the first of his kind and they didn't know what they were doing yet.

I imagine that Daemon Prince Angron will make regular Angron seem puny, like Grey Hulk vs Green Hulk.

#WasThatAThing?

Setting aside one-on-one "PRIMARCH FIGHTS!" (which happen in theoryhammer about 100 times more often than in games), 'weak' Angron can chop through a lot of stuff on the tabletop that other primarchs with struggle with. S8 armorbane is no joke. Nor is swinging up to 10 attacks with hatred.

Having said that, IIRC FW has said that we'll see more powerful versions of Angron in the future. I think they stated that Angron was in the process of powering up even before his ascension. It'll be interesting to see if we get rules for a pre-ascension, Shadow Crusade-era Angron AND a daemonic version, or just the daemonic version.

 gorgon wrote:
Setting aside one-on-one "PRIMARCH FIGHTS!" (which happen in theoryhammer about 100 times more often than in games), 'weak' Angron can chop through a lot of stuff on the tabletop that other primarchs with struggle with. S8 armorbane is no joke. Nor is swinging up to 10 attacks with hatred.

Having said that, IIRC FW has said that we'll see more powerful versions of Angron in the future. I think they stated that Angron was in the process of powering up even before his ascension. It'll be interesting to see if we get rules for a pre-ascension, Shadow Crusade-era Angron AND a daemonic version, or just the daemonic version.

That's certainly interesting.
To my knowledge however Angron handing Russ his ass happened in the middle of the Crusade. His bare bones version should still be able to tear Russ apart.
Honestly lore veterans like myself and alot of others around here don't like the crusade era Space Wolves and Russ. Everything cool about Russ is done better with Angron. And everything cool about the Fenryka is done better with the World Eaters.
The thing is however, on the table top, every unit the Wolves have does its job of CQCing far better than the World Eaters version. The Fenryka simply appeal more to the targe audience of teens, and thus get better rules.

Lord of the red sands roughly translates to: "all primarch fights are now mutual destruction" since all primarchs are fearless, the combat (and by extension the challenge) will never, ever end. If you REALLY wanted to buff him in primarch fights (where in the fluff he only held a chance by ferocity) then you let him get a final swing in after he dies, NOT an unkillable monster until the challenge is over. that ISN'T how he is in the fluff. he's treated as someone who can and will wipe out half the enemy forces, NOT someone who can and will always beat his brother primarchs (point in case: name one primarch he actually managed to beat without help)

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Setting aside one-on-one "PRIMARCH FIGHTS!" (which happen in theoryhammer about 100 times more often than in games), 'weak' Angron can chop through a lot of stuff on the tabletop that other primarchs with struggle with. S8 armorbane is no joke. Nor is swinging up to 10 attacks with hatred.

Having said that, IIRC FW has said that we'll see more powerful versions of Angron in the future. I think they stated that Angron was in the process of powering up even before his ascension. It'll be interesting to see if we get rules for a pre-ascension, Shadow Crusade-era Angron AND a daemonic version, or just the daemonic version.

That's certainly interesting.
To my knowledge however Angron handing Russ his ass happened in the middle of the Crusade. His bare bones version should still be able to tear Russ apart.
Honestly lore veterans like myself and alot of others around here don't like the crusade era Space Wolves and Russ. Everything cool about Russ is done better with Angron. And everything cool about the Fenryka is done better with the World Eaters.
The thing is however, on the table top, every unit the Wolves have does its job of CQCing far better than the World Eaters version. The Fenryka simply appeal more to the targe audience of teens, and thus get better rules.

See, I don't know about that either, especially if we're talking about a points-equivalent matchup. Grey Slayers can buy power weapons and have some good abilities from their LA rule and either rite. But WE tacticals can stack Rage, Hatred, and free S5 (or S6 if inductii) with '1s' wound rerolls. Put an Apothecary in there and they can fire off an additional attack each at the cost of some casualties. Do the math on that and it gets frightening quickly. WE can dish it out.

Wolf Guard with fists vs. Red Butchers is also probably a mutual annihilation exercise. And the WG probably go *poof* if they get hit by a large WE tactical squad. Now, Rampagers stink, but most legions have one stinker legion-specific unit. *shrug*

 Brennonjw wrote:
Lord of the red sands roughly translates to: "all primarch fights are now mutual destruction" since all primarchs are fearless, the combat (and by extension the challenge) will never, ever end. If you REALLY wanted to buff him in primarch fights (where in the fluff he only held a chance by ferocity) then you let him get a final swing in after he dies, NOT an unkillable monster until the challenge is over. that ISN'T how he is in the fluff. he's treated as someone who can and will wipe out half the enemy forces, NOT someone who can and will always beat his brother primarchs (point in case: name one primarch he actually managed to beat without help)

1. Russ
2. Guilliman
Thats two primarchs he beat and could have killed.

In the fluff Angron is portrayed as one the best fighters among the primarchs, on a level with Horus and Sanguinius. He beat down both Russ and Guilliman with worse weaponry and without help. I don't know of any mention of him losing against an enemy, rather it is noted that he hasn't lost a single fight. He is a Gladiator so 1vs1 is a little bit what he is really good at, he is literally named "the undefeated"...

There's not really a point in balancing Primarchs against one another in direct combat because you will never get to actually see a Primarch fight conclude.

Even the weakest Primarch in melee will tie-up the strongest duelist Primarch long enough for the game to end.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
There's not really a point in balancing Primarchs against one another in direct combat because you will never get to actually see a Primarch fight conclude.

Even the weakest Primarch in melee will tie-up the strongest duelist Primarch long enough for the game to end.

Held up Russ for 2-3 turns with Alpharius. Had no chance of hitting him but I passed alot of invuns

 Brennonjw wrote:
Lord of the red sands roughly translates to: "all primarch fights are now mutual destruction" since all primarchs are fearless, the combat (and by extension the challenge) will never, ever end. If you REALLY wanted to buff him in primarch fights (where in the fluff he only held a chance by ferocity) then you let him get a final swing in after he dies, NOT an unkillable monster until the challenge is over. that ISN'T how he is in the fluff. he's treated as someone who can and will wipe out half the enemy forces, NOT someone who can and will always beat his brother primarchs (point in case: name one primarch he actually managed to beat without help)

You get it but then you don't get it.
Angron is the only primarch to be completely undefeated in a challenge style setting. The whole "I can't die till I see the life leave your eyes" thing fits his lore to a tee. He's a berserker and one of the largest ideas with berserkers is that while berserk they're effectively unkillable, but after they leave the berserk state they feel the full weight of their injuries.
Where did you get that his sole strength was ferocity? That's just....horribly misinformed
When he fought Guilliman who had Super Power Fists while using some big chainswords, Guilliman was being driven into the ground like a nail when they traded blows despite the fact his weapons exponentially amplified the force of his blows.
When he fought Russ, Russ hit him and Angron was completely unphased. Then Angron hit back and floored Russ, and walked over to end him. If that fight went to a finish there would have been 3 whole offensive movements. Only 2 of which were Angron's...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
There's not really a point in balancing Primarchs against one another in direct combat because you will never get to actually see a Primarch fight conclude.

Even the weakest Primarch in melee will tie-up the strongest duelist Primarch long enough for the game to end.

I'm sorry for the double post but this is untrue, especially when you play large dozen turn annihilation games like I do.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
There's not really a point in balancing Primarchs against one another in direct combat because you will never get to actually see a Primarch fight conclude.

Even the weakest Primarch in melee will tie-up the strongest duelist Primarch long enough for the game to end.

Depends... I saw Horus wreck Dorn in 2 rounds the other day...

I don't think we actually know who is stronger of Russ and Angron. Didn't Lorgar tell Angron in a later book that Russ only let him win to prove a point about how against a smart oponent could use his rage and the butchers nails against them? The wolves could have killed Angron at any moment had Russ ordered it. The whole point though was to try and convince Angron to stop using the butchers nails in accordance withe emperors orders. I like to think if those guys went one on one in a duel they'd kill each other while Alpharius sits in the corner giggling.

So basically Angron is unkillable in a challenge? Hahahahahahahahaha- no. Being tough is one thing. Being actually unkillable is quite something else. Of course, I know I would just Heroic Intervention once I bring Angron to "death", and then swap out for a scrub Sergeant, let Angron kill my Sergeant, and then let him die. Unfluffy, but if I want him dead, that's what I'll do.

ThePrimordial wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
Lord of the red sands roughly translates to: "all primarch fights are now mutual destruction" since all primarchs are fearless, the combat (and by extension the challenge) will never, ever end. If you REALLY wanted to buff him in primarch fights (where in the fluff he only held a chance by ferocity) then you let him get a final swing in after he dies, NOT an unkillable monster until the challenge is over. that ISN'T how he is in the fluff. he's treated as someone who can and will wipe out half the enemy forces, NOT someone who can and will always beat his brother primarchs (point in case: name one primarch he actually managed to beat without help)

You get it but then you don't get it.
Angron is the only primarch to be completely undefeated in a challenge style setting. The whole "I can't die till I see the life leave your eyes" thing fits his lore to a tee. He's a berserker and one of the largest ideas with berserkers is that while berserk they're effectively unkillable, but after they leave the berserk state they feel the full weight of their injuries.
Where did you get that his sole strength was ferocity? That's just....horribly misinformed
When he fought Guilliman who had Super Power Fists while using some big chainswords, Guilliman was being driven into the ground like a nail when they traded blows despite the fact his weapons exponentially amplified the force of his blows.
When he fought Russ, Russ hit him and Angron was completely unphased. Then Angron hit back and floored Russ, and walked over to end him. If that fight went to a finish there would have been 3 whole offensive movements. Only 2 of which were Angron's...

I don't think I've ever seen Angron be unkillable in a challenge. That makes no sense, especially fighting against stronger opponents (Horus, Sanguinus, the Emperor, Scoria)

Angron's strength was his ferocity. He was utterly relentless, savage, and his main damage was done when ripping through swathes of infantry. However, this tactic left him overextended - and this was the whole point of the fight with Russ. Russ knew he might die, but Angron's legion couldn't keep up with Angron, who would be isolated and slaughtered: alone and overextended.

Jorim wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
Lord of the red sands roughly translates to: "all primarch fights are now mutual destruction" since all primarchs are fearless, the combat (and by extension the challenge) will never, ever end. If you REALLY wanted to buff him in primarch fights (where in the fluff he only held a chance by ferocity) then you let him get a final swing in after he dies, NOT an unkillable monster until the challenge is over. that ISN'T how he is in the fluff. he's treated as someone who can and will wipe out half the enemy forces, NOT someone who can and will always beat his brother primarchs (point in case: name one primarch he actually managed to beat without help)

1. Russ
2. Guilliman
Thats two primarchs he beat and could have killed.

In the fluff Angron is portrayed as one the best fighters among the primarchs, on a level with Horus and Sanguinius. He beat down both Russ and Guilliman with worse weaponry and without help. I don't know of any mention of him losing against an enemy, rather it is noted that he hasn't lost a single fight. He is a Gladiator so 1vs1 is a little bit what he is really good at, he is literally named "the undefeated"...

So how come neither Horus or Sanguinius can defeat Angron without dying? Or even the Emperor, when he gets rules?

Even Russ, in his case, fought him solidly to a standstill, which means the Lion would be capable of similar.

It's all fine making him durable in a fight, but he's actually unkillable in a challenge! Even characters who can solidly beat him have to die to even attempt. That's not okay.

ThePrimordial wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Setting aside one-on-one "PRIMARCH FIGHTS!" (which happen in theoryhammer about 100 times more often than in games), 'weak' Angron can chop through a lot of stuff on the tabletop that other primarchs with struggle with. S8 armorbane is no joke. Nor is swinging up to 10 attacks with hatred.

Having said that, IIRC FW has said that we'll see more powerful versions of Angron in the future. I think they stated that Angron was in the process of powering up even before his ascension. It'll be interesting to see if we get rules for a pre-ascension, Shadow Crusade-era Angron AND a daemonic version, or just the daemonic version.

That's certainly interesting.
To my knowledge however Angron handing Russ his ass happened in the middle of the Crusade. His bare bones version should still be able to tear Russ apart.
Honestly lore veterans like myself and alot of others around here don't like the crusade era Space Wolves and Russ. Everything cool about Russ is done better with Angron. And everything cool about the Fenryka is done better with the World Eaters.
The thing is however, on the table top, every unit the Wolves have does its job of CQCing far better than the World Eaters version. The Fenryka simply appeal more to the targe audience of teens, and thus get better rules.

It was a close fought fight, IIRC. Russ shouldn't have to die to beat Angron.

You don't need to be a lore veteran to dislike Russ. You can like/dislike him as much as a you want regardless, but Angron and Russ were very different, and Angron wasn't just Russ +1, and the World Eaters weren't just Space Wolves +1. That much is clear. They both had areas of overlap, and the Wolves excelled in some, and the Eaters excelled in others. Neither was flat out better.

I think it's less applying to the teens, and more the power creep within 30k. The World Eaters were one of the first Legions to be given rules. The Wolves are one of the last. There's been a noticeable change since. If it were based on popularity with teens, then the Thousand Sons must be very popular with them - which I don't think is quite true.

The other primarchs seem to be quite sure about who is stronger, as horus says in the same book that he and angron are the only ones able to beat Sanguinius who is regarded as one of the strongest primarchs.
Yes, russ only reason for the night of the wolf was to teach angron a leason, but the way it was described they only held back the killing blow. The part were the wolves could have shot angron only appeared at the end of the fight, after russ was beaten down by a weaponless angron.

Isn't the whole point that Angron has been weakened heavily by the butcher's nails at the point of his rules release?

Chapter Master Zoidberg wrote:
Isn't the whole point that Angron has been weakened heavily by the butcher's nails at the point of his rules release?

He is in fact dying which is why logar arranges for him to ascend.

Yeah, Russ dosent want to kill his brother. Using that engagement as a reason to Angron getting godlike (i live untill you die homebrew) is just not good enough.

Leman Russ fight against Angron was lost from the beginning because of the mindset of Russ. We never really WILL know who would win of those two since BOTH walked away from that match. But we sure can fanboy about the two most awsome primarchs.

Anywho.
Its warhammer, you can do whatever you like, give Angron 200 wounds and 10 10 10 10 10, (or make him unkillable untill he wins) or trade Leman Russ stats onto Angron model. Just remember to ask your oppenent first atleast, just dont expect the guy who fields a melee primarch to agree with it. And especially if its Leman Russ.

P.S. I know your frustation (to some extent), seeing my bloodthirster gettings stomped to death by a knight for the 3rd time,make me want to homebrew too, but its never really feels right. Its a gakky twilightzone of "NOT MY fething IMAGINATION OF THINGS"

Just a heads up, FW's rules are designed to show the Primarchs at a particular point in their lives, with minor exceptions being made for Fulgrim & Ferrus in terms of their armament. The rules for Angron reflect that by the time of the heresy, he was dying. Leman Russ' rules show him at the height of his power. As the Shadow Crusade begins, Angron will begin to be infused by the power of chaos, and will receive updated rules to reflect this, even before he turns into a Daemon Prince.

Long story short: There is no need to worry, it is intentional, and it will change in the future. I don't know if they'll make him better in the ways you want, but he will definitely receive multiple boosts in the years to come.

Stick Angron in a squad with his 4+++ FNP apothecary buddy and watch the tides turn.

No one else has bested my Lorgarstar so far.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Stick Angron in a squad with his 4+++ FNP apothecary buddy and watch the tides turn.

No one else has bested my Lorgarstar so far.

I mean he's okay, but since he lost invisilibity in book 4 he's not tha bad. Still tell me what that star consistis of.

The Primarchs were definitely not singing from the same hymn sheet when it comes to who is the strongest and their opinions are very much based upon their own personal experiences.

For example Corax was discovered very late in the game and we don’t know how much time he had to be around his other brothers as they were scattered around the galaxy most of the time. We know that Corax spent some time with Horus during the crusade and Sanguinius would have made sure to spend some time getting to know him. He was also discovered just after Angron so he would likely have been around him long enough to have had a good idea of his and the other two’s abilities in comparison to his own but his knowledge would have been very fuzzy when it comes to some of his other brothers, especially when it comes to people like Jaghatai Khan who hid what he was capable of as he believed that it would give him the element of surprise over his opponents, and people like Vulkan who held back for fear of hurting his brothers.

Then you have Dorn who thought that if it ever came to a fight between him and Angron that he would crush Angron’s head like an egg and Curze who outright claims that he is better than Sanguinius when it comes to “skill at arms”.
When you start to put all the pieces together you end up with a very confusing and contradictory picture about who is the strongest when it comes to 1 on 1 fight’s. (Personally I do believe that it should be Angron)

As others have pointed out the rules he has at the moment show an Angron who is dying and is not as powerful as he was.

I don’t think we need to go too overboard to make Angron better, if I was to change Angron I would change his state line to:

WS-10 BS-5 S-7 T-6 W-6 I-7 A-6 LD-10 SV-2+

Wargear changes:

Gorefather and Gorechild: when making an inv save against these weapons the opponent suffers a -1 penalty to their inv save. (an 5+ inv save becomes a 6+ inv save/ a 4+ inv save becomes a 5+ inv save ect)

Armour of Mars: for every two wounds Angron loses his Feel no Pain improves by 1 to a maximum of a 4+ save.

Angron is a blender and he does it very well. It's not Angrons rules that are the problem, it's Russ. His rules don't really reflect his fluff. He should be able to beat the other primarchs not through trading blows but through cunning and ruthless resolve. Where Ferrus flinched Russ would not have.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Stick Angron in a squad with his 4+++ FNP apothecary buddy and watch the tides turn.

No one else has bested my Lorgarstar so far.

I mean he's okay, but since he lost invisilibity in book 4 he's not tha bad. Still tell me what that star consistis of.

Lorgar with precog + levitation + any, Gal Vorbak or Terminators depending on my taste at the time, primus medicae, maxed out combat praetor and chaplain.

It works. One of its greatest strengths is its incredible mobility; levitation lets it pick its targets very well.

Angron just spam challenged everybody and was ridiculously tough to kill with that 4+++.

Even Vulkan's boys did not give me that much trouble, though against them I got some good rends in early on.