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So the new Cadia books, both have Detachments made from multiple factions.

The Reborn Warhost is Eldar, DE, and Harlies.
It states all models gain the Ynnari Faction, but are they still battle brothers? Hence are they still not allowed to use transports outside their codex?
Example: If I field a Reborn Warhost, If I take Harlies, can I also take a raider for my FA choice in the warhost, and deploy them in it?

Here are the rules from GW errata.

Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.

Q: Can units from two Detachments with the same Faction
embark in each other’s Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: Yes.

The Detatchment is made up of models that are "battle brothers", but all belong to the same faction...

Thoughts?

That detachment doesn't make them the same faction.

Page 124 of the Cadia II book states under Army Special Rules:
The following pages present rules for fielding Ynnari army. Units and formations taken as part of the Ynnari formation or REBORN WARHOST have the Ynnari Faction, in addition to their own faction.

I think we're in new territory here, with models explicitly having both one Faction and another at the same time.

Arguably an Eldar/Ynnari unit could not embark in an Eldar/Ynnari Transport vehicle, because Eldar and Ynnari are Battle Brothers.

I've not seen more than the leaks though, so hopefully something helps explain it in the new book.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I think we're in new territory here, with models explicitly having both one Faction and another at the same time.

Arguably an Eldar/Ynnari unit could not embark in an Eldar/Ynnari Transport vehicle, because Eldar and Ynnari are Battle Brothers.

I've not seen more than the leaks though, so hopefully something helps explain it in the new book.

I have the book in hand.

It states this,

Units in the Ynnari Faction have the following levels of alliance with other units from different factions in the same army.

It goes on to give you the alliance level, but the most important says.

Battle Brothers: Dark Eldar, Eldar, Harlies.

Is it referring to Perhaps if you take the Warhost ( so all the Ynnari faction), and then ally in a Cad from DE per say?

Tsilber wrote:
Page 124 of the Cadia II book states under Army Special Rules:
The following pages present rules for fielding Ynnari army. Units and formations taken as part of the Ynnari formation or REBORN WARHOST have the Ynnari Faction, in addition to their own faction.

exactly they still are considered their original faction. So they still wouldn't match

 CrownAxe wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Page 124 of the Cadia II book states under Army Special Rules:
The following pages present rules for fielding Ynnari army. Units and formations taken as part of the Ynnari formation or REBORN WARHOST have the Ynnari Faction, in addition to their own faction.

exactly they still are considered their original faction. So they still wouldn't match

Not sure I understand your logic, it clearly states they all have the Ynnari faction, same faction.

In either case, if you were correct, then the answer to my question, in my OP would be "no".
If I am correct, and they are all part of the faction, perhaps it is new territory to see, as another suggested.

So I think Battle Brothers refers exclusively to models with different factions. Models with the same faction are no longer considered BBs, even if they have a second Faction that is different., as they cannot be said to have completely different factions any more.

Many this book needs an FAQ like now

 Galef wrote:
So I think Battle Brothers refers exclusively to models with different factions. Models with the same faction are no longer considered BBs, even if they have a second Faction that is different., as they cannot be said to have completely different factions any more.

Many this book needs an FAQ like now

Actually, your logic above makes the most sense, if that is how battle brothers is worded.

If that is the case, then the answer to my OP, would be yes. All infantry units in a Reborn Warhost Detachment, have the same faction, and can ride in any transports taken in the Warhost, regardless what other factions they may have in addition to Ynnari faction.

I suspect that their intention is that if something has the same faction, they can share transports even if they're another faction in addition. Unfortunately, the Allies section talks only about the relationship between units with different factions without explicitly stating that if two units share the same faction you don't worry about the Allies Matrix or what the relationship is. So, just going by RAW you look to see if there are different factions, not the same faction to determine if you can hop in the other guys' transport at the beginning of the game. It should really be FAQ'd now that thy're putting out detachments that can have multiple factions.

I think my preliminary view is that, for example, Eldar/Ynnari are of the same Factions as other Eldar/Ynnari, but are of different Factions to and are Battle Brothers with Dark Eldar/Ynnari and Harlequins/Ynnari.

I think this is supported by the last sentence before 'Levels of Alliance' and the Allies Matrix:

"Irrespective of the method you use to choose your army, this section tells you how models from different Factions fight alongside each other."

Eldar/Ynnari share the same Factions with Eldar/Ynnari, but do not share the same Factions with Dark Eldar/Ynnari or Harlequins/Ynnari.

 Galef wrote:
So I think Battle Brothers refers exclusively to models with different factions. Models with the same faction are no longer considered BBs, even if they have a second Faction that is different., as they cannot be said to have completely different factions any more.

Many this book needs an FAQ like now

When it comes to Transports, it is the Faction of the unit in question which matters.

Then when we consider the rulings regarding ICs in units regarding some rules, it is possible for a unit to be considered as having more than one Faction.

The Ynnari Faction needs to explicitly state it removes the Faction in order to work. The only case which may possibly override it is Dedicated Transports which gain the Faction of their unit.

But it is still a unit being Battle Brothers with itself. The FAQ team needs to go back and review their rulings on this one and how it interacts with these new books. They really stuck their pens up their arses to pick their noses on this one.

Well all great points, but I think we all see it was intended to be allowed, but the Rules and FAQ on it (prior to this book coming out) will object to it.

Thanks everyone for your input, I will avoid doing it at this time unless I get permission from a T.O. or my opponent prior, its to grey area.

Gratitude for all the feedback and discussion.

The rules do not have a problem with it, the FAQ does. There is nothing in the Rulebook, either printed, errata, or amended, which prohibits Battle Brothers from Embarking on a Transport at any time.

Thats what I meant, the FAQ in regards to the rules.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I think my preliminary view is that, for example, Eldar/Ynnari are of the same Factions as other Eldar/Ynnari, but are of different Factions to and are Battle Brothers with Dark Eldar/Ynnari and Harlequins/Ynnari.

It makes a lot of sense, but I think it could also be interpreted the other way.
If a rule says that infantry models can do something, then jump infantry and jetpack infantry models can also do it. So if Ynarri models can embark upon Ynarri transports at deployment, then so could Ynarri/Eldar models.
The same way a jump infantry model can choose to move like normal infantry or use its jump pack, a dual faction model could choose to behave according to a specific faction.

But the Rulebook doesn't explain what happens when a model has two factions at the same time, so I'm afraid there won't be a clear answer without a proper FAQ.

But why did the writers decide that the models should keep their old factions, instead of replacing them? I think it's because they wanted rules saying "Every model with the Eldar faction…" to still apply to Ynarri/Eldar models. And at the same time, allow all Ynarri models to function as the same faction (and not as battle brothers). Otherwise, what is the whole point of the Ynarri faction in the first place?

fresus wrote:
It makes a lot of sense, but I think it could also be interpreted the other way.
If a rule says that infantry models can do something, then jump infantry and jetpack infantry models can also do it. So if Ynarri models can embark upon Ynarri transports at deployment, then so could Ynarri/Eldar models.
The same way a jump infantry model can choose to move like normal infantry or use its jump pack, a dual faction model could choose to behave according to a specific faction.

The difference is that Jump/Jet Pack are explicitly effective sub-types of unit, which "occur in addition to another". They are specifically designed to allow for their specific multiple unit types.

See I wonder about this however I think it leans towards ynnari faction models being able to use the transports that are also ynnari faction, ignoring the second faction.

My belief is from this:

If the units original faction mattered, then there would be an issue with allying with eldar, dark eldar, and harlequins with your reborn warhost.
The rules for an allied detachment say that "all units chosen must have a different faction to any other units in your primary detachment (or no faction)" , under its restrictions.

Say you had an eldar farseer, dark eldar raider, and a troupe of harlequins in your primary detachment which was the reborn warhost, you can now not ally with the dark eldar, eldar or harlequin codex since now some of your units would share factions. If you wanted to ally in pure eldar that kept their battle focus, you couldn't since the farseer in the primary detachment would have the same faction as the eldar allies preventing this alliance. Nor could you ally in a dark eldar allied detachment with say grotesques or something, or even ally with any haemonculi covens if you included one dark eldar in your primary.

Therefore, they would all have to count as just one faction, the ynnari faction, regardless of which codex houses the rules for them.

Until a FAQ is presented for this mess of a book, the situation is no different than multi faction situations as before. When a unit has more than one faction, it still has both factions; RAW it may not embark during deployment. This came up before and hasn't changed with this book.

well then i guess ynnari cant ally with eldar, dark eldar, and harlequins if they include them in their primary reborn warhost. Sucks. No heamoncs if you include dark eldar but if you don't, then you can ally haemoncs. makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
umm what if we think of this in the reverse. Ynnari are battle brothers with eldar, dark eldar and harlequins. On the flipside eldar, dark eldar and harlequins are battle brothers with ynnari.

You are saying that both factions apply at the same time. That a ynnari model is also eldar/dark eldar/harlequin depending on the model.

According to what you guys are saying, eldar ynnari cannot start in dark eldar ynnari transports because eldar and dark eldar are battle brothers.

HOWEVER, according to this logic, they are also the ynnari faction. And ynnari are battle brothers with eldar, dark eldar, harlequins. So by your own logic, an eldar ynnari couldn't start in an eldar ynnari transport because bam it is a battle brother with it. Does that make sense? Even though they are both eldar, you have stated that they also count as their second faction and the second faction is a battle brother with eldar.

So from your argument, you would have a whole army that cannot start in its transports OR you can just have your ynnari fire dragons in a ynnari venom.

you make da call

 PFI wrote:
See I wonder about this however I think it leans towards ynnari faction models being able to use the transports that are also ynnari faction, ignoring the second faction.

My belief is from this:

If the units original faction mattered, then there would be an issue with allying with eldar, dark eldar, and harlequins with your reborn warhost.
The rules for an allied detachment say that "all units chosen must have a different faction to any other units in your primary detachment (or no faction)" , under its restrictions.

Say you had an eldar farseer, dark eldar raider, and a troupe of harlequins in your primary detachment which was the reborn warhost, you can now not ally with the dark eldar, eldar or harlequin codex since now some of your units would share factions. If you wanted to ally in pure eldar that kept their battle focus, you couldn't since the farseer in the primary detachment would have the same faction as the eldar allies preventing this alliance. Nor could you ally in a dark eldar allied detachment with say grotesques or something, or even ally with any haemonculi covens if you included one dark eldar in your primary.

Therefore, they would all have to count as just one faction, the ynnari faction, regardless of which codex houses the rules for them.

Yes, it's an issue for an Allied Detachment. There's no problem, however, if you take a CAD, a different (non-Allied) Detachment or a formation, though. Imperials are going to run into a similar problem when they start using any of the 3 characters from Fall of Cadia as an HQ choice in an Imperial detachment that's a different faction - the rules allow it, but now you have two different factions that you can't take an allied detachment for. I guess if you had really wanted an Allied Detachment you'd have to suck it up, take a second troop unit and take a CAD instead.

Just posting from my interpretation with the rules finally at hand. (they are in spanish so maybe slight translation side)

The Ynnari Factions is comprised by:

Yvraine, Visarch and Yncarne, but this 3 can also be used on any detachment of Eldar, Dark eldar or Harlequin regard of faction. (but still retain their Ynnari faction for BB rules on deployment i think )

Also the new 5 formations are Ynnari faction plus the Reborn Warhost.

This means you can't claim you are playing Ynnari unless you field either the Reborn Warhost or any of the 5 specific formations.

In short you can't make any formation,Cad or Allied Detachment as Ynnari unless you field either the Reborn Warhost or the new formations.

 quickfuze wrote:
Until a FAQ is presented for this mess of a book, the situation is no different than multi faction situations as before. When a unit has more than one faction, it still has both factions; RAW it may not embark during deployment. This came up before and hasn't changed with this book.

This interpretation is hotly disputed and has been heavily debated just recently on this very forum.

Some people interpret the FAQ as saying they must have ALL factions in common while some say that since they have A faction in common you don't even go to the Allies Matrix.

I think they have two factions for a reason - other none-ynarri aeldari (Craftworld, dark and Harlequin) have rules that mention other eldar models, not including ynarri (obviously, as they're new).

Example: avatar of khaine. He has a rule that gives friendly eldar within 12" the fearless, rage and furious charge USR's. If the Ynarri units only had one faction, then a unit of Ynarri dire avengers within 12" of the avatar wouldn't benefit. With dual factions, they do (along with other rules).

The FAQ also discusses rules for fighting units that have more than one faction. It says that when using say preferred enemy (faction X) or Hatred (faction X) and you have an enemy unit containing models from faction X and Faction Y, treat the enemy unit as being both.

This would mean if someone has preferred enemy (eldar), it would work against ynarri units that also have the eldar faction.

Regarding transports, the dual faction works here too. Though eldar and dark eldar are battle brothers and can't normally deploy on each others transports, Ynarri and Ynarri are the same faction, regardless of having a second faction, and so I would say they can deploy on each others transports.

Consider one more example. Ynarri are battle brothers with Eldar. If I choose a Ynarri unit of Dire Avengers and take a dedicated transport for them, I could argue that the dire avengers are Ynarri and the dedicated transport is Eldar, and therefore battle brothers. The dire avengers cannot deploy on their own dedicated transport!

This leads me to say that as long as you share one faction with another unit, you are the same faction for allies matrix purposes.

Though this would mean you can't take a ynarri allied detachment if your primary detachment contains eldar, dark eldar or harlequins:

All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction).

Oops!

Warhanna, you can take Ynnari as allys but only if you field the. In a Reborn warhost or in one of the Fracture of. Biel-Tan new formations.

The Ynnari rules specify you only can field them as such so no regular CAD or Ally CAD allowed as Ynnari

Warhanna wrote:

Regarding transports, the dual faction works here too. Though eldar and dark eldar are battle brothers and can't normally deploy on each others transports, Ynarri and Ynarri are the same faction, regardless of having a second faction, and so I would say they can deploy on each others transports.

Consider one more example. Ynarri are battle brothers with Eldar. If I choose a Ynarri unit of Dire Avengers and take a dedicated transport for them, I could argue that the dire avengers are Ynarri and the dedicated transport is Eldar, and therefore battle brothers. The dire avengers cannot deploy on their own dedicated transport!

This leads me to say that as long as you share one faction with another unit, you are the same faction for allies matrix purposes.

That's what they probably intended and is easy to believe it's RAI, but RAW right now you can't. According to the rules as they stand you don't look to see if they're the same faction and then ignore the Allies Matrix if they are, since there's no rule for that. The only written rule to go by is the unit has a different faction from the transport it can't be deployed in that transport at the start of the game (as per the Main ruebook FAQ, which pretty much messed up the whole situation). It's something to talk about with the people you game with before playing. They'd probably be reasonable with this, but right now unless we get a FAQ you can't just make a blanket assumption that they can deploy in the transsport if they share one of two factions with it when there's a second faction they don't.

The issue with this discussion is that some people are assuming that 'same' Faction is what allows stuff, but in actuality it is 'different' Faction that matters. Models with different factions count as allies (in this case BBs) and thus cannot deploy in each other's transports

There are only 3 models with the Ynnari Faction: the Triumvirate. All other units are Ynnari/Eldar, Ynnari/Dark Eldar or Ynnari/Harlequin.
Ynnari/Eldar Banshees are a different faction than a Ynnari/Dark Eldar Raider, and thus could not deploy in said Raider.

It is dumb, but thems the rules

-

 Galef wrote:

It is dumb, but thems the rules

-

Incorrect .

I assume you are referring to this?
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.

This is not a rule. it is guidance from an FAQ. It is intended to solve rules disputes.

It is not intended to be paraded about as a reason to cause rules disputes, when the rules are very clear.

Units which are the same faction, do not have to apply the allies matrix. They have no problem getting in their transports.

I already mentioned what warhanna was saying earlier. If we go by the dual faction ally matrix way of determining transports for ynnari then no ynnari could start in any transport as the ynnari faction is a battle brother with any of the secondary factions the unit possesses (harlequin, dark eldar and eldar)


Eg ynnari eldar dire avengers cannot start in ynnari eldar waves er pent as both would be battle brothers with the other unit despite having the exact same faction.

Even not making a blanket assumption, we can't assume this is the case because an army not being able to start in any transports period is both unheard of and dumb, so we have to assume there is either two cases left to us.

1) a unit can start in a transport as long as both factions of the unit matches both factions of the transport which is less likely then
2) a unit that shares at least one faction with a transport can start in the transport.

Sadly we can't determine either... although I would lean towards the second case and it makes more sense that a unit from the same detachment as a non dedicated transport should be able to start in it.

In khorne demonkin they gave all of them the same faction making this question easier. It would have been easier if they said have ynnari faction but count as their other faction for special rules.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

It is dumb, but thems the rules

-

Incorrect .

I assume you are referring to this?
Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.

This is not a rule. it is guidance from an FAQ. It is intended to solve rules disputes.

It is not intended to be paraded about as a reason to cause rules disputes, when the rules are very clear.

Units which are the same faction, do not have to apply the allies matrix. They have no problem getting in their transports

.

Thank you for proving my point that people are treating all Ynnari are the same faction with no consideration to that fact that some are different factions.
It is clear via the FAQ (which I consider to be rules, as should you) the units that as BBs cannot deploy in each other's transport. You quoted that yourself

Ynnari/Eldar Banshees are BBs with Ynnari/Dark Eldar Raider as they have different faction. One has Eldar, the other has Dark Eldar.
It does not matter that they both also have Ynnari, as the allies matrix is applied to units with different factions, which these 2 units have. Thus they consider each other BBs

-