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Hey guys,

So I've tried to run the Skyhammer Annihilation Force in a couple of different ways:

(1) 5-Man Squads all around;
(a) 4x Heavy Weapons w/ Armorium Cherub for the Devastators;
(b) Vet Sergeant w/ Power Sword & 2x Flamers on the Assault Squads;

This has worked reasonably well for me so far, but it doesn't feel like I'm maximising the utility of the formation with it, so I tried this next one:

(2) 10-Man Squads all around;
(a) 4x Heavy Weapons w/ Armorium Cherub for the Devastators;
(b) 5x Marines w/ Boltguns for the Devastators;
(c) Vet Sergeant w/ Power Sword for the Assault Squads;
(d) 2x Eviscerators for the Assault Squads;
(e) Devastators were Combat-Squaded into the Sergeant + Heavy Weapons (Armorium Cherub goes here) and a 5-Man Squad w/ Bolters
(f) Assault Squads were Combat-Squaded into the Vet Serg w/ 4x Regular Assault Marines (Bolt Pistol/CCW) and a 5-Man Squad w/ the 2x Eviscerators.

This seemed to under-perform, especially given the increase in points when compared to option (1).

I was thinking that it would be good to run Assault Squads as described in Option (1) with the Devastators from Option (2) in order to maximise the effectiveness of the Formation while still being points efficient and allowing more points for other Formations, Detachments, and the army's Unbound Element (if applicable).

What are your thoughts on how to build a Skyhammer Annihilation Force? How would you use it?

Cheers

I've never run it myself, but one of my buddies likes to run his Dev units with 2x Gravcannon and 2x Multimelta in each, combat squadding so that there are 2 of each weapon in each combat squad. This allows him to engage more targets. No one I've seen use the formation takes very many upgrades on the Assault guys, though. I think they tend to treat them as a tax, which is a big mistake IMO.

For the points, you can't go wrong with a pair of flamers for the assault boys, and I like a Vet Sarge with Eviscerator, myself, especially since the nerf to Meltabombs [per unit]. You can engage whatever you want that way. I'd probably lean towards 7 man Assault squads, just to give you a couple extra bodies to work with. They aren't so much a killing things unit, as a reasonably priced / efficient tarpit for something shooty, or capable of chumping a vehicle. If you can get to an AV 10 side, tossing 2x Flamers, a Krak Grenade, and a handful of bolt pistols into it, plus the follow up assault SHOULD let you punk a vehicle in one turn. Even if it simply disembarks a unit from a Wave Serpent, for example, they've done their job by cracking the Serpent and stranding whatever's inside.

With the Dev's I'd probably rock 7 man units again, but probably keep it to 2x Heavies, maybe 3, per squad. The Skyhammer really adds up quickly for points, and doesn't leave much else that you can fit into a 1500 to 1850 point game.

greatbigtree wrote:For the points, you can't go wrong with a pair of flamers for the assault boys, and I like a Vet Sarge with Eviscerator, myself, especially since the nerf to Meltabombs [per unit].

I see the benefits of giving a Vet Serg an Eviscerator, but unless I have another (Independent) Character model with a melee weapon that is not Unwieldy in the same squad, then it's always a risk. That's an old habit from when I used to run my Crusader Squads with a Power Fist on the Sergeant. But I agree - The pair of Flamers are nice. The only problem is that you lose Attacks in CC (which is a problem of sorts since CC is exactly where you want these guys to be).

greatbigtree wrote:I'd probably lean towards 7 man Assault squads, just to give you a couple extra bodies to work with.

Fair call, but I feel it may be worth going for a full 10-Man Squad if you're going to go above 5x Marines.

greatbigtree wrote:With the Dev's I'd probably rock 7 man units again, but probably keep it to 2x Heavies, maybe 3, per squad. The Skyhammer really adds up quickly for points, and doesn't leave much else that you can fit into a 1500 to 1850 point game.

This is why I'd rather max out the Dev Squads. Have them do a lot of the work in the turn they arrive (and maybe the turn after of if they survive that long). I feel that the Skyhammer is on really useful in 2,000+ Point Games because that sort of points limit allows you to take units that take attention away from your Devastators (or at least so that if your opponent does target your Dev's, the rest of your army can do equivalent damage or more).

ZergSmasher wrote:I've never run it myself, but one of my buddies likes to run his Dev units with 2x Gravcannon and 2x Multimelta in each, combat squadding so that there are 2 of each weapon in each combat squad. This allows him to engage more targets.

Fair enough, but would it not be better to do what I had in mind which is Combat Squad all the Heavy Weapons into one Squad in order to deal with the targets they're designed to take out better, leaving the rest to act as 'vessels' for the Suppressing Fusillade Special Rule?

ZergSmasher wrote:No one I've seen use the formation takes very many upgrades on the Assault guys, though. I think they tend to treat them as a tax, which is a big mistake IMO.

I agree - Very big mistake. They're pretty much ignoring half the benefit of the Formation.

I've only played two games with the formation, so I'm no expert. Happy to share my findings so far though. One game I've maxed out the Devastator units, one game I kept them to 5 men each.

I run a full alpha strike army, with as many threats as possible. On turn one, the opponent has:
- 2 Heavy Incinerator and Gatling Psilencer Dreadknights in their face
- a DW drop pod with 4 frag cannons ready to either drop 8 lascannon & 1 melta shot (all with re-rolls) on a vehicle, or 8 rending strength 6 templates on some infantry
- Celestine flying up and dropping her orbital bombardment and acting as a bodyguard for a single DW Heavy Thunderhammer Vanguard Veteran
- a GK librarian and strike squad probably arriving, running, flaming and casting powers
- all of this is on top of the skyhammer formation.

If you're running a skyhammer annihilation force, you're probably doing it because you're playing an alpha-strike army like the one listed above. If that's the case, I think the smartest way to do it is to maximise your first turn impact (or second turn if it suits better). For me this means:
- the dev squads are only 5 men and each have 4 grav-cannons (or other heavy weapon of your choice) with Ultramarines tactics
- the assault marines are only 5 men, and MAYBE have a flamer and/or meltabomb if you have points you need to spend (in 90% of games, they are just there to tie up a backfield infantry unit. Kitting them out is a waste of points. They should never be fighting a proper assault unit anyway, they are just there to stop a unit from shooting back.)

The squads end up being squishy at only 5 men, and if the devs get targeted you are losing points very quickly. But the flipside is that it gives you more other units that act as threats and will help wipe the enemy faster, giving them less options to shoot back with. To turn those guys into full 10 man squads costs 320 points all up. I would have to drop Celestine, the Heavy Thunderhammer Vet & both psilencers to pay for that. Or the DW + change, or a NDK + change. The extra devastator bolters just aren't worth it compared to more powerful options. And again the assault marines don't need to be killy, they're fantastic at what they do - not winning combat, but tying up an enemy shooting unit.

When I took the Skyhammer the first time I took two 10 man squads of devs, with the thinking that it would let me combat squad them and have 2 grav cannons in each and potentially shoot down four separate tanks. Mathematically, I should have destroyed two with my first two combat squads, but some unkind dice meant that I destroyed neither and simply immobilized both. All of the bolters were wasted as they couldn't hurt the tanks. After that, the other two combat squads ended up both shooting a third tank on the other side of the field and brought it down, but again the 6 bolters did nothing, and I could've accomplished the same result with a simple 5 man squad. That was 140 points that just sat there and cheered, which in an alpha-strike army is not what you want.

Anyway, that's just my experience, others might have different opinions

PS. If you do want to run an eviscerator on the assault serg, that combos well with grav-gun devs and their concussive bullets. I probably still wouldn't do it (for aforementioned cost reasons), but it's a nice little synergy wombo-combo.

Ideally, you can want maxed out Dev squads with 2 Gravs and 2 Multi-Meltas each, allowing you to maximize your effect over a the widest selection of targets, with Salamander, Iron Fist, or Ultramarine chapter tactics depending on play style. The Assault Marine squads should be set up as finishers, with a mix of power weapons and a Melta Bomb, to finish off units the Devs failed to remove outright. Ideally.

In practice, you will build your Devs and AMs to your local meta.

SJ

I am looking to run 10 man dev squads and 5 man assault squads.

1 dev squad of grav and 1 dev squad of Hvy bolters.
Combat squading them would depend on the enemy that is there.

My current Skyhammer Annihilation unit is set up as the following
(10) Dev Squad - 4x Grav Cannons, 1 Combi Grav, Pod
(10) Dev Squad - 4x Heavy Bolters, Pod
(5) Assault Squad - Power Lance, Melta Bomb
(5) Assault Squad - Power Lance, Melta Bomb

The Grav squad does work as per usual with any grav unit. Combat squad split with 2-3 bolter guys being bullet catchers for the Gravs is standard while ill go all in grav if I plan on nuking a BIG target like a tanky MC.

The Heavy Bolter squad either does a nice job of spamming pinning on units that can be pinned..... or everything is immune to pinning and they tend to cry a lot. Sometimes ill cut it down to 5 man if I need to trim points as Heavy Bolter Devs tend to be lower priority targets and last longer by virtue of being somewhat ignorable (unless your getting pinned by them every turn then they get shot at).
With the FAQ changes for rerolling blast gets hot and general need of my army ill be making some Multi Meltas and Plasma Cannon Devs to see how they do. Multi Meltas seem like no brainers while might be fun for longer range fire support.

Regular Assault Marines are somewhat meh but the Power Lances are the real show MVP for me. Many a time I have had the lancer just challenge into hitting a squad leader and ripping it a new one while the regular assault marines tend to get a kill or two but to meh effect. I don't feel like adding more assault marines to the unit would be of much benefit while I also don't feel like adding flamers would benefit them as they rarely are close enough on deep strike to flamer anything. I will danger close but most of the time my charges without shooting put me at like 8 or 9" after scattering and if the pinning devs cause casualties.

superwill wrote:
I've only played two games with the formation, so I'm no expert. Happy to share my findings so far though. One game I've maxed out the Devastator units, one game I kept them to 5 men each.

I run a full alpha strike army, with as many threats as possible. On turn one, the opponent has:
- 2 Heavy Incinerator and Gatling Psilencer Dreadknights in their face
- a DW drop pod with 4 frag cannons ready to either drop 8 lascannon & 1 melta shot (all with re-rolls) on a vehicle, or 8 rending strength 6 templates on some infantry
- Celestine flying up and dropping her orbital bombardment and acting as a bodyguard for a single DW Heavy Thunderhammer Vanguard Veteran
- a GK librarian and strike squad probably arriving, running, flaming and casting powers
- all of this is on top of the skyhammer formation.

If you're running a skyhammer annihilation force, you're probably doing it because you're playing an alpha-strike army like the one listed above. If that's the case, I think the smartest way to do it is to maximise your first turn impact (or second turn if it suits better). For me this means:
- the dev squads are only 5 men and each have 4 grav-cannons (or other heavy weapon of your choice) with Ultramarines tactics
- the assault marines are only 5 men, and MAYBE have a flamer and/or meltabomb if you have points you need to spend (in 90% of games, they are just there to tie up a backfield infantry unit. Kitting them out is a waste of points. They should never be fighting a proper assault unit anyway, they are just there to stop a unit from shooting back.)

The squads end up being squishy at only 5 men, and if the devs get targeted you are losing points very quickly. But the flipside is that it gives you more other units that act as threats and will help wipe the enemy faster, giving them less options to shoot back with. To turn those guys into full 10 man squads costs 320 points all up. I would have to drop Celestine, the Heavy Thunderhammer Vet & both psilencers to pay for that. Or the DW + change, or a NDK + change. The extra devastator bolters just aren't worth it compared to more powerful options. And again the assault marines don't need to be killy, they're fantastic at what they do - not winning combat, but tying up an enemy shooting unit.

When I took the Skyhammer the first time I took two 10 man squads of devs, with the thinking that it would let me combat squad them and have 2 grav cannons in each and potentially shoot down four separate tanks. Mathematically, I should have destroyed two with my first two combat squads, but some unkind dice meant that I destroyed neither and simply immobilized both. All of the bolters were wasted as they couldn't hurt the tanks. After that, the other two combat squads ended up both shooting a third tank on the other side of the field and brought it down, but again the 6 bolters did nothing, and I could've accomplished the same result with a simple 5 man squad. That was 140 points that just sat there and cheered, which in an alpha-strike army is not what you want.

Anyway, that's just my experience, others might have different opinions

PS. If you do want to run an eviscerator on the assault serg, that combos well with grav-gun devs and their concussive bullets. I probably still wouldn't do it (for aforementioned cost reasons), but it's a nice little synergy wombo-combo.

Superwill you seem pretty knowledgeable, maybe I can get a suggestion from you. If someone is running a dual skyhammer list and has 350,pts left over what would you add as a beat stick unit?

345 Points-Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Wings, Armour, Balesword, Plague Flail, Greater Reward, and ML 3.

...

What? It works.

More seriously, I'd add in a Wulfen Murderpack. 2-5 units of Wulfen, so you won't have MANY upgrades, but even stock Wulfen HURT.

 JNAProductions wrote:
345 Points-Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Wings, Armour, Balesword, Plague Flail, Greater Reward, and ML 3.

...

What? It works.

More seriously, I'd add in a Wulfen Murderpack. 2-5 units of Wulfen, so you won't have MANY upgrades, but even stock Wulfen HURT.

Right on I'm going to try out an Inquisition allied detachment. I'm trying to make my dual skyhammer list as competitive as possible. Are people using this formation in ITC events?

 Wulfenone wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
345 Points-Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Wings, Armour, Balesword, Plague Flail, Greater Reward, and ML 3.

...

What? It works.

More seriously, I'd add in a Wulfen Murderpack. 2-5 units of Wulfen, so you won't have MANY upgrades, but even stock Wulfen HURT.

Right on I'm going to try out an Inquisition allied detachment. I'm trying to make my dual skyhammer list as competitive as possible. Are people using this formation in ITC events?

Probably not. Coteaz or a single scary Tau item with Early-Warning Override instantly dismantles Skyhammer, and both of those are very common in the current ITC landscape.

Depends on your tactics.

Typically I use the assault marines to grab objectives while the devs try to assasinate priority targets.

I've used the assualt marines to shunt real assault units into possition with electrostatic displacement.

I've run 10 man assault squads (rarely do these have a good target)

The Dev are almost always taking 4 grav and 4 melta with the grav unit being 10 man points permitting. I've run plasma cannons with ultramarines tactics and they did surprisingly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Wulfenone wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
345 Points-Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Wings, Armour, Balesword, Plague Flail, Greater Reward, and ML 3.

...

What? It works.

More seriously, I'd add in a Wulfen Murderpack. 2-5 units of Wulfen, so you won't have MANY upgrades, but even stock Wulfen HURT.

Right on I'm going to try out an Inquisition allied detachment. I'm trying to make my dual skyhammer list as competitive as possible. Are people using this formation in ITC events?

Probably not. Coteaz or a single scary Tau item with Early-Warning Override instantly dismantles Skyhammer, and both of those are very common in the current ITC landscape.

Coteaz blows massive chode - 12 inch bubble is easy to avoid - especially with weapons that fire 24". Riptide wing is scary for skyhammer at least with drop pods you are able to scatter your marines though - keep in mind everything has hard counters. Like riptide wing gets absolutely murdered by daemons.

That's totally fair... but when you're talking about hard-counters... a goal should be that if you must have one, that it isn't an ever-present one. Riptide Wing shows up EVERYWHERE... which makes it too common of a counter to have, if you're looking to play/perform at ITC events.