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Scenario:

Harlequin unit taken in a Ynnari list charges a unit of tactical marines (5, we'll say) and wipes the entire squad at their initiative step before the marines get to swing back. The unit is destroyed, and the Harlequins are out of combat. Can they use a Soulburst action in order to charge another nearby unit, and if so do they fight that unit or simply get "stuck in"? Do they get to consolidate first, or is that step skipped?

I think there are a few ways to interpret this one, but it's super critical so I want to see other people's opinions on it.

Yes, but its pretty crap outcome.
Harlequins destroy unti at their initiative step.
They charge at the end of this initiative step (as per SfD rules)
They now in combat with squad of marines.
Marines go at their I4 and mess harlies up.

The only point doing something like this is probably Reavers charging something like Culexus (hammer of wrath cant snap shot, suck this Culexus), killing him with hammer of wrath and then do next charge at the bottom of I10, then fight at their initiative (and still get wrecked).

Or maybe unit with huskblade archon, archon kills MC on his high init, then they can charge into next combat to avoid being in the open.

Yes, DarkPhoenix has it right. I don't see any other way to interpret.

The important part is that they are allowed to make another assault but it starts at the initiative step after the one they used to kill the unit before.

For most units, that means they won't have any attacks left to kill the 2nd unit.

Do Eldar have Unwieldy weapons that fight at Initiative 1? Equivalent to a Power Fist sergeant inside a tac squad?

Not sure... If they do... you could kill a unit with your high initiative troops then bounce over to assault a tank with your power fist equivalent at I1, knowing that the vehicle can't attack back. That would be a very useful Soulburst action.

But if you kill the unit with a sweeping advance, and then charge another unit, I believe you get to attack again. Because sweeping advance is done after the fight sub-phase, it doesn't happen at a given initiative step (and SftD explicitly talks about the fight sub-phase for keeping the same initiative step).

However, not sure if you get to consolidate before or after SftD.

That is an interesting thought. If killed by sweeping advance, then the charge will initiate a new combat that should be resolved separately.

As far as I can see this rule cannot be made to work in any sensible way.

The interpretation in this thread seems to fall apart if the second unit you are SfD charging into is already in combat.

If this second combat has already been resolved it seems daft to start it again at the initiative step below the Harlies. Ok, you would probably just have to say no more attacks are made by anyone.

What if the second combat you are moving into has not been resolved?
Do you skip the initiative steps above the Harlies preventing some units from getting the attacks they would normally get?
Do you start at I 10 as normal and the Harlies get to attack again?
Maybe you could assume the Harlies are not really there until after their I step so they can't be hit by an I 10 model but some I 4 marines could hit them?

Bonus confusion: What if you use your SfD charge to multi assault two units, both of which are already locked in two separate combats, one of which has been resolved and one hasn't?

Strength form Death allows you to make a "charge move". It does NOT allow a unit to attack twice in a turn, nor does it let you resolve attacks outside of the assault phase.

So if you wipe a unit, whether by your attacks or sweeping advance, and then Soulburst to charge another unit, you still CANNOT attack, because you have already attacked this turn.
The only time you might get to attack is if you had mixed Initiatives in the unit, or HoW.
Let's say a unit of Harlies with Embrace (that;s the HoW one, correct?) charges Marine unit A. If they kill them at I10 with the HoW, they can Soulburst to charge Marine unit B and will resume at I9, so at their regular Initiative, they would get their regular attacks, as they have yet to use those.

Also important to note that you still have to wait for the assault phase to attack, even if you charge in a different phase, no matter whose turn it is. So if your opponent kills a unit, you can charge with the unit near it but you still must wait until the opponents assault phase to resolve your attacks.

Edit: @Moosatronic Warrior: It doesn't fall apart as you would simple treat the unit that charged in as already attacking if it attacked already, or resume their attacks at the right I if not. If the existing combat has not been fought, those models resolve their attacks as normal. The unit that Soulburst into combat only gets to lend support if it has attacks that can be resolved.
However any enemy units in the existing combat can hit the Soulburst unit as normal
As long as you remember that models get to attack at their Initiative and cannot attack twice in a turn, you can correctly resolve any situation.

-

Good points. I will break down the text of the rules for a Soulburst Charge action.

The unit can immediately make a charge move as if it were your Charge sub-phase (if they do, enemy units can fire overwatch as if it was your Charge sub-phase)

Fine so far - you can can do a charge at any point in ether player's turn, even if you have already charged.

Note that you don't do the combat now, you just do the charge.

Also bearing in mind a unit can only Soulburst once per player turn. (brb p 23 states that "turn" always means "player turn")

A unit that makes a charge in the Fight sub-phase does so at the end of the current initiative step, and once they have charged, the initiative steps continue to resolve as before (including for models in the charging unit)

So this initiative jiggery-pokery only happens if you do a second charge in the FIGHT SUB-PHASE (not the assault phase) at all other times you resolve combat normally.

So this triggers when a Harlequins Troupe (for example) attacks an enemy at initiative 7 and 6 and either kills them all or sweeping advances them. Then, the next combat they make it into starts at initiative step 5.

The reason this rule is very clever is that all (?) Eldar have a higher initiative than enemies... so the most likely scenario is that the enemy will get an attack and you will not. However, if you charge an enemy unit of I6, nobody will get to attack and you will both Pile In and be Locked in Combat.

One extra thing... you can't Soulburst out of combat as "Locked in Combat" specifically prevents you from doing so.

Looking at multi combats - yeah this is hard to work out! The difficult problem only occurs when there are more than 1 combats close together, and you charge the winner of combat A into combat B before B has been started.

Looking again at the rules...
A unit that makes a charge in the Fight sub-phase does so at the end of the current initiative step, and once they have charged, the initiative steps continue to resolve as before (including for models in the charging unit)
It seems to say that the charging units basically "sit out" the higher steps of combat B and officially complete their charge at the end of their last I step.

Only really useful if you have a mixed initiative unit where the higher initiative model(s) can reliably kill someone in combat and the lower initiative model(s) can be useful in a second combat.

I really don't think that's going to be very often. Maybe if your Troupe Leader kills the 1-2 models you were already in combat with you can have the rest of the Troupe smash into the back of a different fight.


Personally I love these rules and it makes me want to buy some Eldar.

I believe that you're all over thinking it. The 'existing Initiative step' would only apply if you use the Soulburst to charge into an ongoing combat. If you make a fresh charge into an unengaged unit (during the Fight sub phase), you would start the Initiative stages from scratch.

Silentz wrote:
A unit that makes a charge in the Fight sub-phase does so at the end of the current initiative step, and once they have charged, the initiative steps continue to resolve as before (including for models in the charging unit)

So this initiative jiggery-pokery only happens if you do a second charge in the FIGHT SUB-PHASE (not the assault phase) at all other times you resolve combat normally.

So this triggers when a Harlequins Troupe (for example) attacks an enemy at initiative 7 and 6 and either kills them all or sweeping advances them. Then, the next combat they make it into starts at initiative step 5.

I don't agree with your bit about sweeping advances.
Sweeping advances are not made during the fight sub-phase, but after it (so after the initiative 1 step has been fully resolved). Since it does not happen during the fight sub-phase, the part in SftD rule about keeping the same initiative step doesn't apply.

 Galef wrote:
Strength form Death allows you to make a "charge move". It does NOT allow a unit to attack twice in a turn, nor does it let you resolve attacks outside of the assault phase.

So if you wipe a unit, whether by your attacks or sweeping advance, and then Soulburst to charge another unit, you still CANNOT attack, because you have already attacked this turn

I couldn't find something in the rules that say a model can only attack once per assault phase. Usually it's prevented because a model is in a single fight (which however many units), and its initiative step will only come once, so it will attack only once.

However, when soulbursting after a sweeping advance, I do believe it creates a new combat that didn't exist before, and that the bit about keeping the same initiative step doesn't apply. Therefore, this combat should also be resolved starting at I10, and going down, and models would normally attack at their step, even if they already did so in a previous fight earlier.

They probably added the bit about initiative steps to prevent models from attacking twice per turn, but I can't find a reason why you couldn't after a sweeping advance.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:The interpretation in this thread seems to fall apart if the second unit you are SfD charging into is already in combat.

If this second combat has already been resolved it seems daft to start it again at the initiative step below the Harlies. Ok, you would probably just have to say no more attacks are made by anyone.

What if the second combat you are moving into has not been resolved?
Do you skip the initiative steps above the Harlies preventing some units from getting the attacks they would normally get?
Do you start at I 10 as normal and the Harlies get to attack again?
Maybe you could assume the Harlies are not really there until after their I step so they can't be hit by an I 10 model but some I 4 marines could hit them?

Bonus confusion: What if you use your SfD charge to multi assault two units, both of which are already locked in two separate combats, one of which has been resolved and one hasn't?

Well… I have no idea.

In short: this rule is a complete mess.

The problem here is the concept of Initiative Step only applies to an individual combat, not the entire Fight sub-phase as a whole. You don't resolve the I10 attacks in all combats, then I9...down to I1, for example. The rules tell you to pick a combat and resolve it, then pick another and so on.

There don't seem to be any rules preventing a unit wiping out it's enemy then using Soulburst to initiate another combat or getting involved in an ongoing combat, mainly because the rules assume it's not possible to charge more than once in a turn.

If my Harlequins kill a unit, then charge a different unit we fulfil the requirements for fighting a combat (we're engaged in the Fight sub-phase) and have to start the sequence of attacks again at I10. I can't see how any other procedure would follow the rules.

Let's not even consider what happens if we charge into an engaged unit that has already fought this turn...

OK let me throw a spanner in the works here. Can a unit that destroys another one in combat even be chosen to take a soulburst action? SfD prevents a unit locked in combat from being chosen.

Given the reference to initiative steps with the charge move, does that mean that units are still locked in combat until 'determine assault results' after initiative 1, and some other unit should be chosen for Soulburst instead?

Just a question

If the target is dead and nobody else is in base to base with them then the combat ends and you become unlocked. It talks about this in the Consolidation section.

Under locked in combat, though, it says you aren't unlocked until the end of the phase, I thought.

It does say that, but in this case I believe the "fight sub phase" counts as a "phase" for this purpose because they say "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, or the end of combat pile in was insufficient so that it is no longer locked in combat, that unit may consolidate."

In other words, the "trigger" for being "unlocked" seems to be no longer being in base to base with after the last person swings, which is exactly what would occur if you charged a unit and wiped it out. No interfering steps to trip you up and delay the SfD activation.

Being stuck in close combat even if you dont get to fight is still better than not being in close combat as a harlequin...

 ClutterEater wrote:
It does say that, but in this case I believe the "fight sub phase" counts as a "phase" for this purpose because they say "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, or the end of combat pile in was insufficient so that it is no longer locked in combat, that unit may consolidate."

In other words, the "trigger" for being "unlocked" seems to be no longer being in base to base with after the last person swings, which is exactly what would occur if you charged a unit and wiped it out. No interfering steps to trip you up and delay the SfD activation.

See, soul burst happens immediately when a unit dies. If you are in the fight sub phase when this happens, soul burst would trigger during this phase right when the unit dies, not when the phase ends. Therefore you would be locked in combat since it isn't the end of the phase and couldn't charge, move shoot etc.

Would this make the whole charging in fight sub phase Useless? No since a unit that was enengaged near that combat could charge.

I was recently chatting to a friend regarding this rule. He was saying that the RAI is quite clear that they should be able to leap from combat to combat and that is the reason initiative is mentioned in the SfD action. He also pointed out that if he used soul burst to charge a unit in the other players turn that he would be allowed to proceed to the fight sub-phase ("Once this has been done, you can either chose to declare a charge with another unit, or proceed to the Fight sub-phase" 45 BRB) - thus skipping the other players entire turn.

I am utterly baffled by how many people are misunderstanding this rule.

There is ONE and ONLY ONE instance where the 'current Initiative Step' stipulation would be relevant.

A unit dies partway through combat resolution in the Fight Sub-Phase, triggers a Soulburst action in a currently unengaged Ynarri unit and that unit charges into the SAME COMBAT that triggered the Soulburst.

You cannot wipe a unit in the Fight Sub-Phaae then charge another unit with a Soulburst action (you are Locked until the end of the phase).

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
I am utterly baffled by how many people are misunderstanding this rule.

There is ONE and ONLY ONE instance where the 'current Initiative Step' stipulation would be relevant.

A unit dies partway through combat resolution in the Fight Sub-Phase, triggers a Soulburst action in a currently unengaged Ynarri unit and that unit charges into the SAME COMBAT that triggered the Soulburst.

You cannot wipe a unit in the Fight Sub-Phaae then charge another unit with a Soulburst action (you are Locked until the end of the phase).

So you can only charge into an existing combat? Then why is there something about overwatch?

I don't follow how finishing one combat, to Soulburst into another unit starts that combat 1/2 through. We are told to resolve the different combats independent of each other, in an order chosen by the current player.

-----
That said, I've been looking at it a completely different way and it has been working. So maybe I'm missing something or it's just an oversimplification. To me it seems to work. It has yet to come up, so I'm keeping an eye on the whole thing for when it does. I just want to recap here (more for me), just to make sure.

- During the Charge step, we resolve all the charges, and the Fight Sub Phase doesn't happen until after all charges have been declared and resolved.
- We count up all the different combats. Pick One and resolve all of the initiative steps before moving on to the next.

** The simplest outcome is that if the souldbursting unit charges into a unit that is not locked in combat, or has yet to be resolved then it gets to participate when that combat is selected. Likewise, if the soulbursting unit charges into a combat that has already resolved, it doesn't restart that combat or make it eligible to pick a second time.
-----

Kind of along the same lines Dra'al said about being locked, but looking at it before the Fight Sub Phase. What if we count up the number of combats that are ELIGIBLE to be selected. So a Soulbursting unit that hits an unengaged unit doesn't even get to swing that turn because it wasn't even the 'Combat' didn't exist after all charges are declared. It makes a weird sort of sense because Soulbursting allows the unit to charge, but it doesn't reverse the whole phase back to the charge step. This way the soulbursting unit gets the protection of not being shot at (which is the issue with Harlequins), but the defending player doesn't lose another unit in the same turn.

This does cause problems when a soulbursting unit charges into another unit that is involved in a combat that hasn't been resolved. This could go either way, as I don't see it coming up that often as players learn to keep their units far enough apart to avoid a soulbursting unit to even make the charge. It would be perfectly legal to allow this new unit to participate in the Combat when it gets resolved as they've met all the requirements of being locked/engaged at the start of the initiative step.

** Without instructions on how to actually resolve it, then a house rule could be implemented. Not sure if I follow Dra'al completely, but if the unit is still locked in the other combat until the end of the phase, wouldn't a simple house rule of making the soulbursting unit ineligible to attack or be attacked when that combat is selected to resolve? Seems a much better solution than saying that they've already attacked at higher/lower initiative, not get to attack back and just contribute to combat resolution?

A unit that soulbursts into another combat that has lost, doesn't have to test/break/get swept by resolving it this way as well.

So, just to make this more confusing, does it change for vehicles too? You can't be locked in combat with a non-walker vehicle. If Unit A kills Vehicle Unit B at Initiative 5, could A charge and fight Unit B at Initiative 4 and below?

fresus wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
I am utterly baffled by how many people are misunderstanding this rule.

There is ONE and ONLY ONE instance where the 'current Initiative Step' stipulation would be relevant.

A unit dies partway through combat resolution in the Fight Sub-Phase, triggers a Soulburst action in a currently unengaged Ynarri unit and that unit charges into the SAME COMBAT that triggered the Soulburst.

You cannot wipe a unit in the Fight Sub-Phaae then charge another unit with a Soulburst action (you are Locked until the end of the phase).

So you can only charge into an existing combat? Then why is there something about overwatch?

You obviously misunderstood what I said. The 'Current Initiative Step' only applies to a limited circumstance. It doesn't limit charging in other instances.

*still baffled

Soul bursting just to make it into another combat even though you don't get to attack is honestly worth it for fragile units like Harlequins especially against an army like Tau or non-combat Eldar units. What's quite interesting is if you wipe a unit out at the initiative 1 step *cough* Incubi through cover *cough* you can then charge another unit and no one will attack. Its essentially the same overall outcome as if they had grenades, receiving one round of attacks either way.

Seriously. I will say it again. You CANNOT wipe a unit, then Soulburst into another unit. You are Locked until the end of the Phase. Even if you could, there is no rule that states that Initiative Steps carry over from one combat to another.

The 'End of current Initiative Step' only applies to one very specific circumstance as I've stated previously.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Yes, but its pretty crap outcome.

Nope its the best outcome possible.

Lets compare things.
Option 1 .
you kill tactical squad A in close combat and are now in the open.
Tactical squad B rapid fires into you, you take ~2,67 wounds and the rest of his army is free to shoot at you

Option 2
you kill tactical squad A in close combat and assault into the other one.
you will get ~1,33 wounds will lose combat, but are safe from the rest of his army in his turn and this TAC squads is likely to die in his turn, allowing you do do the same trick again in your turn.

What about beastpacks or the Court with different models at dif initiatives. I could see this being beneficial to them.

So Soul Burst states that when an enemy unit is completely destroyed within 7" of one or more non-vehicle units...pick one unit to make a soul burst action. It doesn't state that you do this immediately, accordingly there is no reason for you not to complete other steps (such as consolidation).

Page 47 of the BRB stated that a unit in base to base contact with an enemy model, until the end of the phase however; page 54 under consolidation states that if an enemy unit is destroyed or with the combined consolidation moves cannot be brought back into base to base then "it is no longer locked in combat".

If a unit wipes out an enemy unit in the assault phase, completes the consolidation step as required under the assault phase and is therefore deemed not to be locked in combat by the expressed wording, it seems you can grant the unit a soul burst action to assault again.

The soulburst action must be conducted immediately once selected, but there doesn't appear an imperative to abandon steps to chose the unit to complete a soulburst action thereby depriving a unit of consolidation as appropriate.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Seriously. I will say it again. You CANNOT wipe a unit, then Soulburst into another unit. You are Locked until the end of the Phase. Even if you could, there is no rule that states that Initiative Steps carry over from one combat to another.

The 'End of current Initiative Step' only applies to one very specific circumstance as I've stated previously.

Thank you sir! Your interpretation makes by far the most sense to me. The 'end of current initiative step' mumbo jumbo is what has people confused, but really its just referring to soulbursting into an existing combat if a unit has been destroyed in said combat. Unfortunately it means that using soulburst to charge is not going to happen much, you're better off moving closer or shooting in most circumstances.

In any case, they need to FAQ this book ASAP. Between Soulburst & faction double-ups, so much is unclear

Page 53: Consolidation "if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, or the end of combat pile in move was insufficient so that it is no longer "locked in combat", that unit my consolidate.

Going back to page 47 : Locked in Combat "If a unit had one or more models in base contact with an enemy unit, then it is locked in combat"

Now reading the "assault phase"
1. choose a combat
2. fight close combat
3. determine assault results
4. choose next combat or finish assault phase

If you look at it all, you dont finish assault phase until all combats has been resulted and you no longer can choose another combat.

B.c you Determine assault results before the phase is over, after you determine assault result you consolidate, consolidate says you are no longer locked in combat.

So all I am 100% sure the rules are saying you CAN make 2 charges a turn.


PS: Harlequins is the best for this b.c they can have 4 Initiative steps, Embraces are HoW, Int10, Shadowseers and Troupe Masters are 7, you can add a IC character that is an 8 or 9, then the troupes are 6.

Edit: spelling