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Just a few ideas to breathe a little life into the Imperial Guard. Let me know of what you think about the points costs for these.

Ready Rack- 5pts
A Leman Russ, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Demolisher, Conqueror, or Basilisk may take a ready rack. A vehicle with a ready rack may make an additional shot with its main gun at the same ballistic skill of its first shot. Any penetrating hits add +1 to the vehicle damage table if a ready rack is equipped.

One in the hand, one on the floor
At the start of your shooting phase any Leman Russ with a ready rack can roll a d6. On a 4+ it may make a third shot with the main gun at the same BS as the first two shots. On a 2 or 3 there are no effects. On a 1 the vehicle takes a single hit with the main cannon's profile on the front armor. striking this one out because it's been universally seen as a bad idea.

Ablative Armor- 5pts
Any vehicle may take ablative armor. A vehicle with ablative armor ignores the first glance it takes.

Reactive Armor- 10 pts
Any non-walker or non-flyer vehicle may take reactive armor. A vehicle with reactive armor ignores the first penetrating hit it takes.

Active Armor- 15 pts
Any tank may take active armor. When your opponent fires a ranged weapon at your vehicle you may choose to roll a die. On 4+ the active armor systems intercept the incoming round. Each tank with active armor may only take use this twice per game.

Side Skirts- 10 pts
Any non-walker or non-flyer vehicle may take side skirts. A vehicle with side skirts adds 1 AV to its side armor and cannot be immobilized by a shooting attack. The controlling player can choose to remove the side skirts on a weapon destroyed result instead of removing a weapon.

Phosphex- free
Mortar Teams, Basilisks, grenade launchers, Wyveryns, Colosus, Griffon, or Medusa may fire a white phosphorus round instead of its normal profile. A WP round has the profile S4 AP-5 Blast Soulblaze. Any blasts fired withing 6" of a WP round scatter 1d6 instead of 2d6.

Turbine Engine- 10 pts
Any non-walker or non-flyer vehicle may take a turbine engine. A vehicle with a turbine engine may move an extra 3" each movement phase without penalty but suggers 2 glancing hits when it fails a dangerous terrain test.

Armored Company
1-2 HQ
0-2 Elite
0-2 FA
2-6 HS
0-3 LoW

Any unit in an armored company must be a vehicle. Any vehicle in an armored company receives one free vehicle upgrade. The warlord receives 2 free vehicle upgrades. All units in an armored company have the objective secured rule.

Leman Russ Support Vehicle 75 pts
Heavy Bolter, Recovery Arm
Section: Elite
AV 14/13/10
HP 2
BS 3

Recovery arm: Instead of shooting the support vehicle can roll a d6. On a 4+ a friendly vehicle within 6" recovers 1 HP, weapon destroyed, or immobilized result. In addition the recovery vehicle can attempt to repair a wrecked vehicle. On a 6+ the wrecked vehicle returns to play with 1 HP and the immobilized condition. Add +1 to each roll for every extra recovery vehicle within 6".

I like your armor ideas but I'd stop at the whole double shot for the Russ's personally I'd give ordinance the rule where it causes D3 wounds against targets it doesn't ID. Otherwise your ideas are excellent.

I like what you're trying to do.
Ready rack seems really powerful, doubling the firerate for only 5pts and giving a chance to triple it? Too much I fear.
Perhaps just giving it a 4+ to fire a second shot, perhaps removing the +1 damage.
What's the logic behind lap loading making it shoot itself in the front? If you wanted to represent a breech detonation surely that'd be an automatic penetrating hit.

I think you've got too many types of armour. I'd prefer if it was just reactive armour: Ignore the first glancing/penetrating hit. This includes the hull point [always specify hull points I think]

I would prefer if active armour worked more like flare/chaff launchers on flyers. Chance to ignore missile weapons. It's not like you're going to be shooting down bullets or lasers.

I like side skirts, but I think they should be in place of sponsons/access points when relevant. I also don't think they should affect immobilised results, and rather than choosing to do so, they should be rolled for getting destroyed as if they were another weapon.

White Phosphorous was a smoke round too. It should definitely ignore cover, and rather than the less scatter (which makes no sense to me) you should leave the blast template where it fell (or other suitable marker) and any unit firing into, out of, or over that marker confers the shrouded USR to the target unit.
Or perhaps just make WP rounds the S4 AP5 blast, ignores cover profile and add proper smoke rounds that do that? With the ability to target smoke rounds at a point rather than a unit.
Also best not to call them 'White Phosphorous' best to use something like 'dragon fire' or 'incendiary'. You know, war crimes and all that. Fits with the lore better (see: Whirlwinds or Sternguards)

Not a fan of the turbine engine.

Aren't there already rules for armoured companies somewhere? And rules for recovery vehicles? For only 75pts fixing on a 4+ including wrecks is really good with Leman Russ armour.

Like I said, I really like the attempt to make vehicles more realistic, but this is 40k, and I think 'Keep It Simple Stupid' should be the aim of the game. So many smoke/WP shells are a bit too much.

Sorry but Ready Rack is the most overpowered thing I've read on here in a long time. For only 5 points, I can make a second shot with my Demolisher Cannon, with a good chance to fire a third? For 5 points?

I think pretty much all of these upgrades are too cheap, or just flat out too powerful.

They either need a recosting, or a nerf in their capabilities.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think pretty much all of these upgrades are too cheap, or just flat out too powerful.

They either need a recosting, or a nerf in their capabilities.

Maybe not given the current status of vehicles. Tau get interceptor on the cheap for the whole army. Firing a demolisher twice, or even 10 times at a riptide means very little.

For the ready rack just increase the number of shots the main guns of those tanks fire if you want to do something like this. If your upgrade is practically mandatory then it should be incorporated into the main rules.

If i read this correctly, the read rack lets you shoot 2ce, maybe a 3rd shot (with only 1/6 chance of self harm, i'll do it every time), BUT what makes it less overpowerd is when your tank is hit, you get +1 damage chart against yourself, not against the enemy. To represent having live ammo next to your crew, not in a blast resistant box.

that smart, you get +1 shot reliable, but a melta will explode you on a 4+

Martel732 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think pretty much all of these upgrades are too cheap, or just flat out too powerful.

They either need a recosting, or a nerf in their capabilities.

Maybe not given the current status of vehicles. Tau get interceptor on the cheap for the whole army. Firing a demolisher twice, or even 10 times at a riptide means very little.

As would firing a lascannon at a unit of grots.
"Well done, you killed two grots (maybe)"

You can use the argument of firing anything at X is not broken. An extra bolt pistol shot at a Land Raider is useless. An extra meltagun is not.

40k points don't factor in what they're shooting at, and that shouldn't be the same as upgrades. I maintain that a whole 100% increase in firepower from the main gun, with a possible 200% on a 50/50 chance is worth far more than a meltabomb.

pumaman1 wrote:If i read this correctly, the read rack lets you shoot 2ce, maybe a 3rd shot (with only 1/6 chance of self harm, i'll do it every time), BUT what makes it less overpowerd is when your tank is hit, you get +1 damage chart against yourself, not against the enemy. To represent having live ammo next to your crew, not in a blast resistant box.

that smart, you get +1 shot reliable, but a melta will explode you on a 4+

And if I'm doubling, regularly tripling, my damage output, the odds of a melta getting into range to explode me on a 4+ is massively reduced. If they want to double their odds of hurting my tank, they need a new melta (10 points), a new squad/model to hold it, and a transport for that model to get into melta range, otherwise they'll be taking MORE damage.

Not to mention that the other upgrades listed here would negate that melta shot in the first place, for as much as it cost to buy the gun.

" I maintain that a whole 100% increase in firepower from the main gun, with a possible 200% on a 50/50 chance is worth far more than a meltabomb. "

You're probably right. I'm overreacting to how bad vehicles are atm.

Martel732 wrote:
" I maintain that a whole 100% increase in firepower from the main gun, with a possible 200% on a 50/50 chance is worth far more than a meltabomb. "

You're probably right. I'm overreacting to how bad vehicles are atm.

I'll fully agree that vehicles are absolutely ruined, no doubts. Leman Russes particularly. But their weapons are still fairly solid, especially their main guns. Even on some of the weaker mounts, a five point increase is horrendously powerful. For a guaranteed 100% buff with a 50/50 chance of 200%? That's not even close.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I like what you're trying to do.
Ready rack seems really powerful, doubling the firerate for only 5pts and giving a chance to triple it? Too much I fear.
Perhaps just giving it a 4+ to fire a second shot, perhaps removing the +1 damage.
What's the logic behind lap loading making it shoot itself in the front? If you wanted to represent a breech detonation surely that'd be an automatic penetrating hit.

I think you've got too many types of armour. I'd prefer if it was just reactive armour: Ignore the first glancing/penetrating hit. This includes the hull point [always specify hull points I think]

I would prefer if active armour worked more like flare/chaff launchers on flyers. Chance to ignore missile weapons. It's not like you're going to be shooting down bullets or lasers.

I like side skirts, but I think they should be in place of sponsons/access points when relevant. I also don't think they should affect immobilised results, and rather than choosing to do so, they should be rolled for getting destroyed as if they were another weapon.

White Phosphorous was a smoke round too. It should definitely ignore cover, and rather than the less scatter (which makes no sense to me) you should leave the blast template where it fell (or other suitable marker) and any unit firing into, out of, or over that marker confers the shrouded USR to the target unit.
Or perhaps just make WP rounds the S4 AP5 blast, ignores cover profile and add proper smoke rounds that do that? With the ability to target smoke rounds at a point rather than a unit.
Also best not to call them 'White Phosphorous' best to use something like 'dragon fire' or 'incendiary'. You know, war crimes and all that. Fits with the lore better (see: Whirlwinds or Sternguards)

Not a fan of the turbine engine.

Aren't there already rules for armoured companies somewhere? And rules for recovery vehicles? For only 75pts fixing on a 4+ including wrecks is really good with Leman Russ armour.

Like I said, I really like the attempt to make vehicles more realistic, but this is 40k, and I think 'Keep It Simple Stupid' should be the aim of the game. So many smoke/WP shells are a bit too much.

I think I'd definitely pull the 3rd shot option for the ready rack and up the cost to 10pts. Is a second BS 3 shot that threatening though? Also for clarification the +1 to the vehicle damage is on the vehicle with the ready rack.

I think the best solution for the armors is to limit one to each vehicle. Also change the active armor to hitting on a 2+ but drop it down to a single use.

I could definitely get behind replacing the side sponsons with the side skirt. Dropping the ignoring immobilized isn't that bad either but that still leaves the tank susceptible to grav. I'd still keep the option to choose on the weapon destroyed though since the extra plating is meant to take the effects of the round.

The WP round is my inner 13A. One of the more common uses of WP is to mark targets. The giant cloud of burning gives an excellent target to adjust onto. My though behind the rule was to give the other idf weapons a reduced scatter to mimic the effects of having a better reference to target with. I could stand the name being changed but WP is not illegal under the laws of war. You can't fire it a people unless it's your only option, but you can use it to destroy equipment. It's the shell type of choice for destroying fueling points.

Forge World has rules for a tank company but it's pre formations so it's a little dated. I'm not too familiar with the IA books so there may be some redundancy but people shouldn't have to fork over those prices for a recovery tank.

Really appreciate the feedback. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think pretty much all of these upgrades are too cheap, or just flat out too powerful.

They either need a recosting, or a nerf in their capabilities.

assuming we drop the 3rd shot from the ready rack, what would you price these at?

Again appreciate the feedback.

A second shot with a demolisher or battle cannon will certainly hurt. Perhaps word this as something like 'a Leman Russ equipped with a ready rack may fire the main gun twice in each shooting phase' Then specify whether or not it must be the same target.
I understood that the +1 damage was applied to the Russ (like open topped) I was just trying to abreviate it.
But I think definitely remove the third shot.

I do think though that having two armours that do very similar things, ablative and reactive armour, is too much. Condense these down into one.
I also don't think active armour makes much sense against most weaponary, since there's no way for it to intercept something like a lascannon.

It seems WP isn't illegal, my apologies. I would still say that 40k as a whole tends to avoid 'IRL names' which is why we have things like krak and dragonfire rounds.
40k already feels rather bloated, and allegedly 8th is going to try and trim that down, so I think keeping things simple is the best bet.
So I think WP should be either an incendiary round, targeting round, or smoke round. Not any combination.
Plus giving this to grenade launchers seems extremely excessive. Perhaps it should take the blast characteristic of the weapon firing it. EG if a battle cannon fires it it's large blast, if a mortar fires it it's small blast.
Perhaps you could add in flare and smoke rounds, and maybe this an upgrade? ' Be able to turn a tank into the Sternguard veterans of the imperial guard.

Leaving the tank susceptible to grav I don't think has a solution. That's just par for the course atm.
I just don't think giving the player the choice whether or not to active skirts against weapon destroyed makes much sense. Really they shouldn't have any benefit from the front or rear at all and how would you influence where you got shot?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
A second shot with a demolisher or battle cannon will certainly hurt. Perhaps word this as something like 'a Leman Russ equipped with a ready rack may fire the main gun twice in each shooting phase' Then specify whether or not it must be the same target.
I understood that the +1 damage was applied to the Russ (like open topped) I was just trying to abreviate it.
But I think definitely remove the third shot.

This is me playing the world's tiniest violin in sympathy of the other armies that will get screwed by this.

Ready Rack is fine. Even with the third shot.

I do think though that having two armours that do very similar things, ablative and reactive armour, is too much. Condense these down into one.
I also don't think active armour makes much sense against most weaponry, since there's no way for it to intercept something like a lascannon.

Reactive armour doesn't really "intercept" anything. It mitigates the impact and destructive force of whatever hits it.

Theoretically, reactive armour could totally be built that would also mitigate energy weapons.

 Kanluwen wrote:

This is me playing the world's tiniest violin in sympathy of the other armies that will get screwed by this.
Ready Rack is fine. Even with the third shot.

Yeah I really feel bad for those Orks or D.Eldar.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Reactive armour doesn't really "intercept" anything. It mitigates the impact and destructive force of whatever hits it.

Theoretically, reactive armour could totally be built that would also mitigate energy weapons.

OP suggested 3 defences. Ablative armour, reactive armour, and active defences.
All of which do similar things.
Active defences in this context I can only presume involves things like chaff launchers, or little gun/laser modules destroying incoming projectiles. Try and shoot down a laser.
I don't have an issue with how reactive armour would function, my issue is [beyond active defences not making sense] is 3 things all doing very similar things.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

This is me playing the world's tiniest violin in sympathy of the other armies that will get screwed by this.
Ready Rack is fine. Even with the third shot.

Yeah I really feel bad for those Orks or D.Eldar.

I do.

But not many people are playing Orks or D. Eldar these days.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Reactive armour doesn't really "intercept" anything. It mitigates the impact and destructive force of whatever hits it.

Theoretically, reactive armour could totally be built that would also mitigate energy weapons.

OP suggested 3 defences. Ablative armour, reactive armour, and active defences.
All of which do similar things.
Active defences in this context I can only presume involves things like chaff launchers, or little gun/laser modules destroying incoming projectiles. Try and shoot down a laser.
I don't have an issue with how reactive armour would function, my issue is [beyond active defences not making sense] is 3 things all doing very similar things.

That's actually pretty easy. Active defenses would be things like a Trophy Defense System.

Smoke dispensers. Star Wars actually had a LDS grenade. It was a "Laser Dispersing Smoke" that made it so lethal blaster shots ended up just smacking against body armor.

Ready Rack is easily a 30 point upgrade.

And I would NOT allow bringing back wrecked vehicles.

IMO the way to help Leman Russes without making them OP is fairly simple.

-Give them back lumbering behemoth
-Give them a "veteran crew" upgrade option that costs 20 points. This optional upgrade will increase the tank to BS4 and give it the ability to fire all its weapons at different targets.
-Tank commanders (including Pask) get "veteran crew" included in their cost since tank commanders already get BS4.
-Get rid of gets hot rule for plasma on vehicles


Problem solved.

Not so simple. Yes, that would help, but the power lists still crush you. WKs still crush you trivially.

The reality is that we can do a LOT to russes before they get op. After all, a single shaken ends the party for a turn.

Leman Russes become Superheavy Vehicle.

Boom, fixed.

Land Raiders also become Superheavy.

Martel732 wrote:
Not so simple. Yes, that would help, but the power lists still crush you. WKs still crush you trivially.

The reality is that we can do a LOT to russes before they get op. After all, a single shaken ends the party for a turn.

It's true, there's a ton you could do to them before they get OP, but my solutions would put to end almost every complaint specific to Leman Russes. I'm trying to address those issues, not issues with vehicles in general.

Most people's complaints with Leman Russes revolve around sponsons being essentially useless on them, their inherent BS3, and Gets Hot causing them to wreck themselves.

If you want something to keep up with OP things other armies have, you don't need rules changes for that, you just reduce the point cost. This gets into scale creep, but it's definitely the least complicated way to go about it.

Want Leman russes to be good again overall? Reduce the base point cost of all the variants by 10-30 points (depending on the variant), and reduce the cost of all sponson weapons by 5 points.

That would help, because the weapons on Russes frankly crappy. Crappy weapons you pay a premium for on a crappy platform. Welcome to the guard, son.

Martel732 wrote:
That would help, because the weapons on Russes frankly crappy. Crappy weapons you pay a premium for on a crappy platform. Welcome to the guard, son.

It's funny, because another thread I am reading is making comments that Russes really have good firepower/good guns, that makes it so you shouldn't be able to bring them too cheap. Still under powered because.. well.. vehicle. But they think making a battle cannon tank to cheap will bring total calamity.

Russes being super heavy would give them functional split fire.. but 3 hp still can be instant popped by 1 explodes result doing a d3. And.. really, they aren't IK sized, or baneblade sized or even land raider sized, so that seems to be inconsistent.
Giving it double HP just unfairly punishes haves and have-nots for ranged anti-vehicle weapons, since its more prone to surviving and driving away and blasting suckers in the face. But ranged anti-tank will still just explode them in 1 shot
Mixing the two, doubling HP and making super heavy... will now it can survive 1 shot, but its more resilient and 1/2 the cost of most other super heavies as is, and it still wouldn't be great.

Within 7th ed, and the game as a whole, you have very few effective options to try and fix the russ. Leaving it pretty poor and dropping its points is probably the easiest/GW-iest answer.. except them seem content to stick it to a few codecies *cough* nids * cough *orks*

To cheap, and you'll just see an av14 wall with more units than guns to take them out. 14 Leman russes versus your 5 melta guns.

So in lieu of actual balance, give them some 1cer per army cheeky fun upgrades, like a rapid fire battle cannon that is open topped, or av14 sides with no sponsons

No, their firepower is not that good. They have no access to ignore cover, and so that's an instant loss vs Ravenwing, for example. MCs don't give a gak about any russ variant for the most part. The basic Russ isn't even good vs terminators to be honest. For 50 pts more, a Riptide has far superior firepower. Because AP 2 and access to ignore cover.

Leman Russes in my experience get punched out more than shot. The TWC sweeps across the table or the battle company zerg rushes.

My problem with this suggestion is that it's a false choice. If it's an 'option' you're going to take with every LR you choose - and you will, five points is friggin' laughable for the utility you get - then it shouldn't be an option at all. Just make all the LR weapons Heavy 2/Ordinance 2 and be done with it.

Martel732 wrote:
No, their firepower is not that good. They have no access to ignore cover, and so that's an instant loss vs Ravenwing, for example. MCs don't give a gak about any russ variant for the most part. The basic Russ isn't even good vs terminators to be honest. For 50 pts more, a Riptide has far superior firepower. Because AP 2 and access to ignore cover.

Leman Russes in my experience get punched out more than shot. The TWC sweeps across the table or the battle company zerg rushes.

Personally, i Don't disagree. just noted for some reason, the other thread was saying their firepower is respectable, just being a vehicle makes it bad.

They can ignore cover... large blast s6 ap4 eradicator cannon... And a plasma-cutioner will cause as many wounds to the TWC as it will to itself. so umm.. there?

The old-guard need an update. Lets just hope if they are first into 8th ed.. they get treated better than orks were as first into 7th ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 raverrn wrote:
My problem with this suggestion is that it's a false choice. If it's an 'option' you're going to take with every LR you choose - and you will, five points is friggin' laughable for the utility you get - then it shouldn't be an option at all. Just make all the LR weapons Heavy 2/Ordinance 2 and be done with it.

Its not as much a false choice if you are overpaying 30 points base vehicle to begin with.

You can buy 1 candy bar for $3, and get a 2nd snack size candy bar for $0.20, or you could just have 2 Candy bars for $1 each with another brand.

Plasma is the super weapon of 5th ed. There are so many units now that don't give a feth.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Its not as much a false choice if you are overpaying 30 points base vehicle to begin with.

It absolutely is a false choice. A vehicle being absolutely overpriced does not justify an upgrade being underpriced. If you want to fix the LR - and yes, it absolutely does need a buff - you do that by changing the LR entry itself.

 raverrn wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Its not as much a false choice if you are overpaying 30 points base vehicle to begin with.

It absolutely is a false choice. A vehicle being absolutely overpriced does not justify an upgrade being underpriced. If you want to fix the LR - and yes, it absolutely does need a buff - you do that by changing the LR entry itself.

You can let it have a dozer blade, but beyond that, all you can do is make it cheaper.

Martel732 wrote:
You can let it have a dozer blade, but beyond that, all you can do is make it cheaper.

Heavy - A Heavy vehicle has an overabundance of crew or internal control systems. Heavy vehicles may only move 6", but may fire all of their weapons in the as if stationary. If a Heavy vehicle is Shaken or Stunned it may choose one weapon to fire at normal Ballistic Skill instead of firing a snap shot. If a Heavy vehicle is not Shaken or Stunned it may instead fire one weapon twice - choose one weapon before rolling to hit with any attacks and double the weapon's fire rate.

Would that do it?