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So, chariot is a vehicle. Distances to vehicle is measure from and to hull.
I dare to assume most people agree that animals (or daemons) dragging the chariot is not part of its "hull", right? Does that means you ignore them for distance purpose?
What about LoS? It would be alot easier to hide only small cradle thing while letting seekers pop out. Would that prevent chariot from being targeted?

The chariot rules say the rider and chariot are one model

Yes, but do draft creatures count as hull or like wings/tail of the model?

Yes they would count. They are part of the model. And unlike things like wings on MCs, they do not have a rule specifically exempting them from being used to draw LoS

for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements.

When a unit fires at a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret (ignoring the vehicle’s gun barrels, antennas, decorative banner poles, etc.)

Body of a draft animal is definitely not a "hull", but calling it "decorative element" would be a stretch.
Still, "gun barrel" and "antennae" is not decorative on a real tank, so that is why i ask.

Draft animals are none of the things listed as things to ignore for LoS.

So you don't have permission to ignore them for loS

They are not "hull" nor "turret" so unit dont have permission to shoot the chariot even if they can see the animals tho.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
They are not "hull" nor "turret" so unit dont have permission to shoot the chariot even if they can see the animals tho.

Why aren't they the hull of the vehicle? They are the chariots engine. They sounds like part of the hull to me

Well, i disagree. Living creatures cannot be or have hull from what i understand. But that is why i ask, to find different opinions.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Well, i disagree. Living creatures cannot be or have hull from what i understand. But that is why i ask, to find different opinions.

can you support your statement with the rules?

 CrownAxe wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Well, i disagree. Living creatures cannot be or have hull from what i understand. But that is why i ask, to find different opinions.

can you support your statement with the rules?

You don't look in the rules for a definition of 'hull'. You look in a dictionary. From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of hull
1
a : the outer covering of a fruit or seed
b : the persistent calyx or involucre that subtends some fruits (as a strawberry)
2
a : the frame or body of a ship or boat exclusive of masts, yards, sails, and rigging
b : the main body of a usually large or heavy craft or vehicle (as an airship or tank)

So the question should be more whether the animals are part of the "main body" of the vehicle.

Audustum wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Well, i disagree. Living creatures cannot be or have hull from what i understand. But that is why i ask, to find different opinions.

can you support your statement with the rules?

You don't look in the rules for a definition of 'hull'. You look in a dictionary. From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of hull
1
a : the outer covering of a fruit or seed
b : the persistent calyx or involucre that subtends some fruits (as a strawberry)
2
a : the frame or body of a ship or boat exclusive of masts, yards, sails, and rigging
b : the main body of a usually large or heavy craft or vehicle (as an airship or tank)

So the question should be more whether the animals are part of the "main body" of the vehicle.

Someone needs to remember the Tenets of You Make Da Call

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Well, i disagree. Living creatures cannot be or have hull from what i understand. But that is why i ask, to find different opinions.

can you support your statement with the rules?

You don't look in the rules for a definition of 'hull'. You look in a dictionary. From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of hull
1
a : the outer covering of a fruit or seed
b : the persistent calyx or involucre that subtends some fruits (as a strawberry)
2
a : the frame or body of a ship or boat exclusive of masts, yards, sails, and rigging
b : the main body of a usually large or heavy craft or vehicle (as an airship or tank)

So the question should be more whether the animals are part of the "main body" of the vehicle.

Someone needs to remember the Tenets of You Make Da Call

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

I've read that and I know it's a rule, but this situation is kind of an exception. It's like if someone made a thread and asked what's the definition of "the" in the Rules (which could change a lot). The Rules don't define "the". "The" is English. It's really all we've got.

In reference to the Tenants, it would seem #6 doesn't apply: in this rules question CrowneAxe is trying to say that the "hull" in the rules has a broader definition than the normal English usage, which is vice versa of what the Tenants call out.

I would say that the animals count as hull, though. Anything that's not the rider and not decorative has to be SOMEthing in the rules, and that something is HULL.

Measuring distance to the hull is for all those vehicles that do not have a base. Chariots with animals pulling them all have a base. Measure to and from the base.

In cc logan grimnar does not require you to pick up enemy models and place them so their base is ontop of his base and in contact with his santa sled to be in base contact. You just place them in contact with his base.

A necron ccb however hase no real base. Just a little flying one because it hovers. Base contact is the hull.

Dreadnaughts are also vehicle walkers. They have a base. You measure movement from their base. You do not measure movement from their big box body.

Logans dogs are not decorative. They are a core element of the sled that cannot be retracted, folded up, or otherwise put away like a pair of wings could.

I would consider the draft beasts to be the engine, part of the hull and in the case of the Daemons glad they're not being calculated at toughness 3.

 CrownAxe wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Well, i disagree. Living creatures cannot be or have hull from what i understand. But that is why i ask, to find different opinions.

can you support your statement with the rules?

Rules dont explain what is "table" or "inch", they dont say that "living creatures are/are not part of the vehicle hull" either.

 Lance845 wrote:
Measuring distance to the hull is for all those vehicles that do not have a base. Chariots with animals pulling them all have a base. Measure to and from the base.

In cc logan grimnar does not require you to pick up enemy models and place them so their base is ontop of his base and in contact with his santa sled to be in base contact. You just place them in contact with his base.

A necron ccb however hase no real base. Just a little flying one because it hovers. Base contact is the hull.

Dreadnaughts are also vehicle walkers. They have a base. You measure movement from their base. You do not measure movement from their big box body.

Logans dogs are not decorative. They are a core element of the sled that cannot be retracted, folded up, or otherwise put away like a pair of wings could.

That works for me, tho i would say that "gun barrel" on actual tank is not decorative too (it is on the model tho).
Having a base solves most problems.