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2 similar Questions:

First, Soulburst says that a unit can shoot again even if they have done so this turn.
However, the normal shooting phase instructs you to pick units that have NOT shot this turn.
So if a unit has used a Soulburst prior to their normal shooting, it does not appear that they can shoot again, since Soulburst only allows a unit to shoot if they have already, but not the other way around.
Is this correct?

Second Question scenario:
It is the opponents turn and they destroy a unit, triggering an Ynnari unit to Soulburst which uses it to declare a charge.
If the unit they charge overwatches and kills the Ynnari unit, can that unit still shoot in their normal shooting phase?
If I have the first question right, it would appear that the enemy unit has already shot this turn via overwatch and therefore would not get to shoot again.

If that is correct, it could be a very good use of single model Khymera. You either kill the Khymera triggering a Soulburst, or you ignore them, allowing them to use Soulburst to counter charge you, either tying you up, or getting rid of your shooting in your own turn. If you do kill them in overwatch, that might trigger yet another Soulburst action.
Dang this rule has so many chain reaction possibilities.

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I'm not an expert on the new soulburst mechanics, but I'm interested to know how they work better.

Having said that, in the first scenario, how is that even possible? If I understand it correctly, you're asking if a unit could get to shoot twice in one shooting phase due to soulburst, which I think is technically possible.

However, it would require one of your own units to die in your own shooting phase, which is.......difficult. I suppose you could run them into dangerous terrain and all die, or all die to a gets hot malediction, but it would be difficult to kill your own squad in your own shooting phase (unless you play orks, like me). I suppose a more likely scenario would be scattering blasts, but even that is probably tricky with overall high eldar BS.

In the second........to the best of my knowledge, when a soulburst action occurs, the action the unit takes is separate to the overall phase. So, if unit A charges unit B in unit B's shooting phase, and unit B overwatches, that's has no bearing on that unit B's ability to shoot normally in the remainder of their phase.

Though, again, I'm not an expert on the new soulburst stuff, so I'd be interested to know if I'm wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I double checked the rules, and it specifically says units can take soulburst actions, "even if it has already done so this turn". So, yes, a unit could absolutely shoot twice if you managed to kill your own unit in your own shooting phase.

For the charge question, looks like charges are declared "as if it were your charge sub-phase", with overwatch allowed as normal.

I'm pretty sure that would refresh, so if you got a soulburst charge in the enemy's shooting phase, they overwatched and killed a unit, another unit gets a soulburst charge, gets overwatched and destroyed, and that could go on and on, and after it was done, the overwatching unit could still fire normally.

Actually, Soulburst can trigger when ANY unit is destroyed, not just your own.
Example:
My Farseer in a unit of Scatterbikes uses Psychic Shriek to kill a unit close to the bikes, who then use Soulburst to shoot.
When my normal shooting phase comes around, I do not think that unit could shoot again, since they have already shot this turn.
However, it is perfectly fine to shoot the bikes in my shooting phase, THEN use Soulburst to shoot again, because SFD says I can.

What I am referencing in both questions is that when the normal shooting phase occurs (for either player) you may only nominate units that have not fired this turn to shoot. So if you can force an enemy to overwatch prior to their normal shooting, that unit will count as firing this turn.

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The trick of it is that overwatch happens "as if it were your charge sub-phase". Because it's happening "as if it were your charge sub-phase", it wouldn't limit their ability to fire in their own shooting phase, because they haven't.

Well that's the thing, it still happened "in their turn" even though we treat it "as if it were my charge sub-phase"
I think this was something GW did not think through.

The shooting phase rules are pretty clear. If a unit has fired this turn, they are not eligible to be nominated to resolve shooting in the shooting phase.
What isn't clear, is whether Overwatch counts as having fired. It should, especially since you may only Overwatch once per turn.

But what is clear, is that if that Khymera survives the overwatch (unlikely) and makes the charge, the enemy unit will be locked in combat during its shooting phase and will not get to shoot.

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 Galef wrote:
Actually, Soulburst can trigger when ANY unit is destroyed, not just your own.
Example:
My Farseer in a unit of Scatterbikes uses Psychic Shriek to kill a unit close to the bikes, who then use Soulburst to shoot.
When my normal shooting phase comes around, I do not think that unit could shoot again, since they have already shot this turn.
However, it is perfectly fine to shoot the bikes in my shooting phase, THEN use Soulburst to shoot again, because SFD says I can.

What I am referencing in both questions is that when the normal shooting phase occurs (for either player) you may only nominate units that have not fired this turn to shoot. So if you can force an enemy to overwatch prior to their normal shooting, that unit will count as firing this turn.

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Huh.

Took me a couple times to reread the rule to catch that. That seems a little odd that any newly dead would charge a god that consists of eldar dead, but that is what it ways. That is definitely better than what I thought it was, I thought it only applied to ynnari dead.

That is a lot stronger than I initially thought.

But overall, I think the key to soulbursting is that the actions you take occur as if they were your movement/shooting/assault phase. Consequently, their effects don't apply to whatever phase the game is 'really' in, because you're acting outside of that phase.

In the example of killing a unit in the psychic phase, and then choosing to shoot in the psychic phase, and then shooting in your shooting phase, I think that would be allowable. My thought process is that, yes, the unit shot in its psychic phase, but that was due to a special rule. They still get to shoot in their shooting phase, just like anything else.

Similarly, a unit that fires overwatch due to soulburst in their shooting phase happens, in effect, outside of their own shooting phase, you know, "as if it were your charge sub-phase".

I mean, it seems a little broken to rob a unit of it's shooting phase because you make them overwatch, and again to rob your own units of shooting because they shot in a different phase.

But, eldar being broken isn't anything new, I suppose. Could be wrong, certainly have been before.

RAW I would say you're correct. That's how our tournament ruled it this past weekend. However, this is a true FAQ situation or more likely erratta to expand the language to make these situations clear.
Is there similar language for movement and assault phases btw? I don't have my book with me so I can't check. If it says pick a unit that hasn't moved moved or declared an assault it could cause similar problems.

For your second question, I think overwatch is different than shooting but that's more of a gut feeling than any rules so I don't know.

Though I 100% agree if you make a charge in the enemy shooting phase, they can't shoot further, like with the Khymera charge you mentioned.

But I do see where you're coming from regarding "only shoot once per phase", but my thought is that the soulbursting, in essence, creates a new micro-phase.

Soulburst is wonky with assault ATM. I think a FAQ will rule that overwatch vs soulburt assaults are essentially free actions. Also - I think they will rule that units assaulted by soul-burt can still shoot in their shooting phase. Pure conjecture on my part here.

I still think the 1 Overwatch per turn will stand. Soulburst says "as if it were your Charge sub-phase" and last I checked, enemy units still only get 1 overwatch in any of my Charge sub-phases.

Going back to shooting twice: If I Soulburst in my Psychic phase to Shoot "as if it were my shooting phase", then it would stand to reason that when my actual shooting phase comes around, that unit counts as having already fired.
At least that is HIWPI for now.

I think one key difference is that shooting is limited not by turn, but by phase. For example, any unit can fire twice a turn - once during the shooting phase, again during the overwatch phase.

So, if soulbursting 'creates' a new phase by acting as if it were a difference phase, seems to me the soulburst phase wouldn't have an effect on whatever phase the game is actually in.

However, overwatch is actually worded to be once per turn, not per phase, so yeah, a unit couldn't get multiple soulburst overwatches.

However, this does all seem a bit ambiguous. I'm honestly not sure who is correct.

I guess that makes sense. Easy to work around though for both players. Just got to do things in the right order. If you are worried that a unit is going to soul-burst assault your shooting unit - shoot that unit first. Same can be done in your turn. Want to shoot twice with a unit? Better shot before you soulburst.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I guess that makes sense. Easy to work around though for both players. Just got to do things in the right order. If you are worried that a unit is going to soul-burst assault your shooting unit - shoot that unit first. Same can be done in your turn. Want to shoot twice with a unit? Better shot before you soulburst.

This is what I was thinking. I know someone was doubting the usefulness of Khymera in another thread, but if you always have then near other units, they will more than make back their points

One of the Formations that I fear the most as an Eldar Player is Skyhammer. Being able to charge my bikes before they get to shoot is terrifying. Devs removing my WK, equally so.
But with Soulburst, I can shoot the Assault marines if the Devs kill a unit, or charge the Devs if something kills a unit before they have fired.
You can use a similar tactic against GSC ambush, which is another counter to Eldar.

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 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I guess that makes sense. Easy to work around though for both players. Just got to do things in the right order. If you are worried that a unit is going to soul-burst assault your shooting unit - shoot that unit first. Same can be done in your turn. Want to shoot twice with a unit? Better shot before you soulburst.

This is what I was thinking. I know someone was doubting the usefulness of Khymera in another thread, but if you always have then near other units, they will more than make back their points

One of the Formations that I fear the most as an Eldar Player is Skyhammer. Being able to charge my bikes before they get to shoot is terrifying. Devs removing my WK, equally so.
But with Soulburst, I can shoot the Assault marines if the Devs kill a unit, or charge the Devs if something kills a unit before they have fired.
You can use a similar tactic against GSC ambush, which is another counter to Eldar.

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I'm seeing a lot more deathwatch droppods these days than skyhammer. I just null deploy or practically null deploy to get around these alpha strikes. Lets say it's a skyhammer though. A wise player will just deploy in a way that the unit that shoots first - blocks your assault path to the next unit that shoots. Soulburst in general is just deadly if you take WK's. Even if you kill the blasted wraith-knight - you've easily lost more points in the soul-burst return fire.

Imagine Riptide wing with a reborn warhost...It's possible you can wipe out a whole skyhammer before it even gets to shoot between interceptor and soulburst.

Another thing to remember - "turn" = "player turn", unless otherwise specified. Not game turn. So you're fine to shoot even if you have already over watched, just like you can overwatch if you somehow shot in your opponent's shooting phase/psychic phase.

For example, take any one of the powers that lets you shoot as if you were your opponent's model. Does this prevent them from overwatching you that turn also? Of course not. Interceptor is the opposite exception, allowing an out of phase shooting attack but they still have to specify that this means that you CANNOT shoot in your own shooting phase. If that was the default way the game worked, they wouldn't have to specify this. Or it could just be GW writing redundant rules, but I've never doubted how this works.

And you're correct about the first question. A soulburst prior to the shooting phase (or earlier in the shooting phase) precludes the unit from taking their normal shooting action. Means that you have to be careful about the order in which you shoot things.

Good points.
I think Overwatch is also a special case and although it is a shooting attack, using it prior to your own Shooting phase probably has no affect on your shooting.

It does make adding melee Eldar a good option to "body guard" your shooting units. Against armies that get close (Marines, GSC, etc) it gives you a nice option to shoot or charge potential threats before they can do anything.
If they kill the shooting unit, charge them. If they kill the melee unit, shoot them.

Castle Eldar are going to be disgusting to play against, especially since the Reborn Host (the only way to play Ynnari outside of a few rinky dink Formations which themselves will want to be taken in the Reborn host) gives you the option of 2 units Soulbursting off of 1 destroyed unit.
It is entirely possible to get tabled in your own turn as a chain reaction of Eldar shooting/charging you.

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I'd agree on that for Overwatch. Shooting doesn't prevent you from Overwatch, so it seems they have those two functions divorced from each other even though but involve firing the same ranged weaspon.

It could be interesting if someone declares multiple units charging you, you wipe out the first unit and soulburst to use overwatch on the second unit.

Oh yeah it makes WWP D-scythe Wratih Guard even more potent.
Eldar turn they drop in, flame & kill unit A, soulburst to flame unit B.
Opponent turn, if they are silly enough to assault them, they Overwatch and kill unit C and soulburst to either shoot unit D, or get a free move to be outside the possible charge range of unit D.

This could really mess with the common tactic of sending a throwaway unit in to soak the overwatch so that you can have your main melee unit charge unharmed. It may result in the main melee unit either not getting to charge because the WG moved away, or if they were close enough, they may get more hits than the overwatch could have done.

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"I'm sorry, Captain, but we couldn't engage with the enemy Wraithguard. They were too fast for us."

"Excuse me?"

"They ran out of our range."

"But, they're lumbering constructs? And they managed to get away from you without you being able to get into combat?"

"Yes sir"

"You do realize that this is all going on your permanent record."

"Yes sir. Sorry sir."

I saw the title of this thread snd thought the answer was a no brainer. I was sucked in to read none the less, and was instantly interested.

I am predominantly a craftworld eldar player, and for friendly games I am sticking to craftworld eldar. However, for tournament play, it seems like Ynnari is a no brainer personally.

We have a tournament coming up soon (It's a doubles, so Ynnari will still be good but oerhaps not wuite so game breaking as my partner is taking Ravenwing) So I put the question to the TO. He is normally excellent at rules decisions. I gave him the evidence and he has ruled that if you soulburst and shoot, say in the psychic phase, you then still get to shoot in the shooting phase. It was a interesting decision. But obviously one I am happy with.

I was trying to come up with rules to support either arguments. Obviously interceptor specifically states that you can no longer shoot in the shooting phase. And then theres rules like Coteaz's 'I've been expecting you' which overrides this restriction and allows you to. When asked, the TO said soulburst gives you a free action outside of the restrictions of the game turn.

Interestingly I also originally thought you could charge, and if you wiped that unit out you could then charge again. However, he clarified that as per the assualt phase rules, you are considered locked in combat until the END of the phase, and units locked in combat may not make soulburst actions.

KIt's such a cool rule, but I do think it needs a lot of 'Cleaning up'

Codex rules override BRB rules. So it says you can even if you have already. SO for that question then yes.

2nd question, Yes they still can shoot like normal, but Im 100% sure the way the RAW is that they can no longer overwatch (it says once per turn).

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I saw the title of this thread snd thought the answer was a no brainer. I was sucked in to read none the less, and was instantly interested.

I am predominantly a craftworld eldar player, and for friendly games I am sticking to craftworld eldar. However, for tournament play, it seems like Ynnari is a no brainer personally.

We have a tournament coming up soon (It's a doubles, so Ynnari will still be good but oerhaps not wuite so game breaking as my partner is taking Ravenwing) So I put the question to the TO. He is normally excellent at rules decisions. I gave him the evidence and he has ruled that if you soulburst and shoot, say in the psychic phase, you then still get to shoot in the shooting phase. It was a interesting decision. But obviously one I am happy with.

I was trying to come up with rules to support either arguments. Obviously interceptor specifically states that you can no longer shoot in the shooting phase. And then theres rules like Coteaz's 'I've been expecting you' which overrides this restriction and allows you to. When asked, the TO said soulburst gives you a free action outside of the restrictions of the game turn.

Interestingly I also originally thought you could charge, and if you wiped that unit out you could then charge again. However, he clarified that as per the assualt phase rules, you are considered locked in combat until the END of the phase, and units locked in combat may not make soulburst actions.

KIt's such a cool rule, but I do think it needs a lot of 'Cleaning up'

Laaame. Thats a good point tho, units are not locked in combat only at the end of the phase.
But if the first target was vehicle, they can charge the next one, as units in BtB with vehicles are not locked.

Also, i wonder what happen in the unit is destroyed by Soul Blaze at the end of the turn. What Phase would that be?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think one key difference is that shooting is limited not by turn, but by phase. For example, any unit can fire twice a turn - once during the shooting phase, again during the overwatch phase.

So, if soulbursting 'creates' a new phase by acting as if it were a difference phase, seems to me the soulburst phase wouldn't have an effect on whatever phase the game is actually in.

However, overwatch is actually worded to be once per turn, not per phase, so yeah, a unit couldn't get multiple soulburst overwatches.

However, this does all seem a bit ambiguous. I'm honestly not sure who is correct.

Remember that you wouldn´t be overwatching and shooting in 1 player turn usually. You shoot in your turn and overwatch in your opponents.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Codex rules override BRB rules. So it says you can even if you have already. SO for that question then yes.

The thing that makes this tricky is that the "Codex" says you may choose to shoot as a Soulburst action, even if you have shot this turn.
It does NOT say that you may shoot normally in your shooting phase if you have used your Soulburst action to shoot previously in that turn. Those ruels are still covered by the BRB (which say you can only pick units to shoot that have not shot yet this turn.)

In order to "override" the BRB, you need to actually say what is being overridden, which Soulburst does not in this case.
I feel that RAI, Soulburst is a free action that can be done as long as the conditions in SfD are met, and you can do the action normally "as if it was your X phase"
It is a good thing that TO's seem to be catching on to this.

I do think that only Overwatching once pre turn still stands, so having 2+ MSU melee units, like Khymera, to escort your MSU shooting units is a must for me. If 1 Scatterbike unit dies, the other near it shoots, and the second Soulburst allows the Khymera to charge. If the enemy overwatch kills it, then the second Khymera Soulbursts to charge and doesn't have to worry about Overwatch at all.

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It appears we can shoot in the shooting phase even if we used a Soulburst to shoot prior to that:

"Q: If a unit uses a Soulburst action to trigger an action it could normally take in the current phase, and it has not already
acted in that phase, is it eligible to take its normal action after the Soulburst action? For example, if a unit uses Soulburst to
shoot in the Shooting phase before they have taken their normal shooting action, can they shoot again?

A: Yes, unless they would normally not be able to. For example, being locked in combat after executing
a Soulburst charge move will prevent the unit from making another charge move."

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The faq does clean it up, it also changed the locked in combat problem from the previous thread (I can't remember wich one exactly).

Check the FAQ:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/03/03/new-gathering-storm-ii-faq/

 Galef wrote:
It appears we can shoot in the shooting phase even if we used a Soulburst to shoot prior to that:

"Q: If a unit uses a Soulburst action to trigger an action it could normally take in the current phase, and it has not already
acted in that phase, is it eligible to take its normal action after the Soulburst action? For example, if a unit uses Soulburst to
shoot in the Shooting phase before they have taken their normal shooting action, can they shoot again?

A: Yes, unless they would normally not be able to. For example, being locked in combat after executing
a Soulburst charge move will prevent the unit from making another charge move."

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Yes intention is clear
Except due to traditional bad GW wording RAW they can't

yes, "unless they would not normally be able to".

Since normally you can't select a unit to fire that has already fired that turn

Earth127 wrote:
The faq does clean it up, it also changed the locked in combat problem from the previous thread (I can't remember wich one exactly).

Yes, they did a good job clarifying things with the FAQ. I did like how they changed the wording for the locked in combat problem to take care of that. The shooting after a soulburst shooting makes sense, and is also nice to have clarified in a FAQ now.

I do like that they did get the FAQ out reasonably quickly.

Yeah they released it the day before one of their own campaign tournaments at warhammer world.