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I've seen lots of discussions that the Varagyr terminators for Space wolves are bad. I feel they are not great, but I'm just trying to understand why most of feel that way. For the most part their rules are pretty solid. WS 5, always at least Str 5 because of frost Weapons, Fear, Stubborn, they get HoW attacks from charging over 6", and they can all give and accept challenges.

Their flaws are not being able to run or persue because of cataphractii armor, only the Huscarl has 2 wounds, and they start at 275 points for 5 models. Are these flaws enough to make them bad? I personally feel they are a little overcosted like most 30k termies, but are they really that bad other that?

Yeah 275 for 5 guys is a lot, that's actually higher than old-school 40K terminators, which worked out to 40PPM and everyone said they were bad then too.

I'd have to see the final cost break down on a 10 man unit, but even around 50PPM they should all have 2 wounds a piece.

Put it this way, they're 100 points more for a 5 man than an average squad of Cataphractii, but are they able to pull that much more weight?

This was my analysis from the other thread:

I had a lot of hope for these guys until I read one characteristic that soured the entire unit for me: Wounds 1 (2 on the Thegn). Crushing Charge is awesome, until you realize that it only works on a Charge move of at least 6". Because of the wording, the model has to move more than 6", not just roll more than a 6 on the charge distance roll. If you don't move at least 6", no Hammer of Wrath for you. Last part that really bummed me out: Lordsbane. Why include a special rule that can only affect one model at a time in the unit, and only if they win the challenge? Ignoring how wonky and bad challenges work in the first place, this has got to be one of the worst special rules you could possibly give to a terminator unit. On top of that, Bestial Savagery only triggers if they successfully charge, and too bad Cataphracti Terminators can't run or sweeping advance or overwatch. They don't get Hunter's Gait, and Preternatural Senses is a "meh" ability at best. I do like that they cause Fear, are stubborn, and have Implacable Advance. Their two biggest advantages are Fear and Frost Weapons, and the one Frost Weapon that would make these guys worth it, Great Frost weapons, they can't take. These guys are not worth 270 points because they have zero synergy with the army and do nothing for it. A unit of Grey Slayers would be far, far better.

Compare these guys to The Red Butchers for 275 points- 2 wounds each, hit EVERYTHING on a 3+, reroll charge distances, Fearless, Hatred (Everything), and Feel no Pain(6+), and all the other World Eater's special rules. So, ummmm... why am I paying premium points for what might possibly be some of the worst Terminators in 30K? Oh yeah- "I have a Frost Weapon!"

We could compare them to Justaerin's from Sons of Horus: WS 5, all have 2 wounds, Cataphratci Terminator Armor, and come standard with a Power Weapon and Combi-Bolter. They have Stubborn, Furious Charge, Favored of Horus (May be taken as a Command Squad for any Terminator equipped Preator), and Chosen Warriors (issue and accept challenges), and the Sons of Horus rules- reroll reserve rolls of 1, Death Dealer- add +1 BS when shooting with a pistol, assault weapon, or rapid fire weapon at 12" or less, and the most important rule of all: If they out number you in the assault at initiative phase 1, they get to make another attack if they have already attacked this round (so doesn't work with P-fists, T-hammers, or unwieldy weapons). Add in their RoW and equipment options (they can take a Multimelta!), and they are one of the best 30K Terminator units in the game. Oh, and they can take a Dreadclaw Drop Pod as a dedicated transport. All this for 255 points. How many points are the Varagyr again?

"I have a Frost Weapon!"
You sure do little pup. You sure do.

So let's see... 270 points for a unit with 2+/4++, can't run, can't sweep, can't overwatch, causes Fear, but is not Fearless, has stubborn, WS 5, and only LD 8, +1 WS if they charge, but they are already WS 5, so... ? Don't benefit from Hunter's Gait (+1" to runs and Consolidations unless you are wearing terminator armor), and Preternatural Senses is meh on a unit that won't be on the board during darkness, much less shooting anything. Not sure how they could get out flank. Frost Blades give them +1 Str and at least AP 3- but all of them are Specialist weapons! If a Varagyr moves at least 6" in the assault move, it gets a S5 Hammer of Wraith, which is cool, but again... that's gonna be a hard one to pull off. Finally, Lordsbane. Wow. GW realizes you can only make one challenge in an assault phase, right? And you have to win this assault to get the bonus? Hmmm.

How would you use these guys? Tar pit? That's a really, really expensive tar pit unit. Assault unit? That could work, as long as you don't assault another unit of Terminators or a hard unit. You've not gonna give them P-fists or T-hammers- because now you are just piling on good points over bad points. They don't have any shooting options (I love how they got a Heavy Flamer as a shooting option), and why waste the WS 5 and dual frost weapons for a comb-weapon? This unit makes no sense for Space Wolves! They can't be taken as a body guard outside of the Force Org chart, and are not troops. You could seriously take two units of Grey Slayers for the price of one unit of Varagyrs. Or kit out 20 Grey slayers all with power weapons for a little more than 5 Varagyr. With all the other excellent options available in the Elites section for Space Wolves (Deathsworn Pact, Apothecaries, Destroyer Squads, Veteran Squads, Contemptor Dreads, Rapier Weapon Batteries), why would you take these guys?

 Tamwulf wrote:
Compare these guys to The Red Butchers for 275 points- 2 wounds each, hit EVERYTHING on a 3+, reroll charge distances, Fearless, Hatred (Everything), and Feel no Pain(6+), and all the other World Eater's special rules. So, ummmm... why am I paying premium points for what might possibly be some of the worst Terminators in 30K? Oh yeah- "I have a Frost Weapon!"

How they hit everything on 3+? Enemies hit them on 3+ due to ravening madmen rule but where they got hit everything on 3+ rule?

tneva82 wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Compare these guys to The Red Butchers for 275 points- 2 wounds each, hit EVERYTHING on a 3+, reroll charge distances, Fearless, Hatred (Everything), and Feel no Pain(6+), and all the other World Eater's special rules. So, ummmm... why am I paying premium points for what might possibly be some of the worst Terminators in 30K? Oh yeah- "I have a Frost Weapon!"

How they hit everything on 3+? Enemies hit them on 3+ due to ravening madmen rule but where they got hit everything on 3+ rule?

Yeah, I read that backwords a couple weeks ago. Everything hits them on a 3+, but the Red Butchers are WS 5, so they'll hit just about everything on a 3+, and everything else on a 4+.

So besides me screwing up one line about a completely different unit, what do you think about the Varagyr Terminators?

I feel that there were a lot of good points made about the quality of the varagyr. I was already feeling that they were a bit underwhelming. And from what I've seen, the best loadout for them is currently powerfist/frost claw. But that makes a 5 man unit cost about 295 points. Which is definitely not worth it. I do agree that they need a change either by 2 wounds per model, or just a points cost reduction. But without that change, there are simply better choices to take in an elite slot for space wolves.

 Tamwulf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Compare these guys to The Red Butchers for 275 points- 2 wounds each, hit EVERYTHING on a 3+, reroll charge distances, Fearless, Hatred (Everything), and Feel no Pain(6+), and all the other World Eater's special rules. So, ummmm... why am I paying premium points for what might possibly be some of the worst Terminators in 30K? Oh yeah- "I have a Frost Weapon!"

How they hit everything on 3+? Enemies hit them on 3+ due to ravening madmen rule but where they got hit everything on 3+ rule?

Yeah, I read that backwords a couple weeks ago. Everything hits them on a 3+, but the Red Butchers are WS 5, so they'll hit just about everything on a 3+, and everything else on a 4+.

So besides me screwing up one line about a completely different unit, what do you think about the Varagyr Terminators?

Just wanted to check did I miss something.

I'm not particularly qualified to comment on Varagyr's. I'm just in process of painting my first HH army and as such obviously haven't even played single game let alone seen them in action. As it is all I know of their rules is what's written above!

Compared to Sekhmet the WS 5, Frost weapons and HoW if charging 6+ inches may be worth just as much as ML 2 and Force weapons. It depends on how you use them. Just lke Phoenix terminators, they have their use, but they are more of a stiletto than a hammer imho.

To be honest i think they do actually excel as a pf+lc 5 man squad in a phobos that you drive straight into someones back line and start destroying back field units while the rest of your army does its job of actually cutting through the main line. Wolves dont need an uber cc termie unit because they are gonna roll in cc like a fish in water but a small powerful tough unit that can go from unit to unit killing squishy stuff and vehicles? yup these do that nicely.
They also do pretty well against red butchers, 4 attacks on the charge, 5 for the Thegn all ID anything toughness 4 or below at i1, its mutually assured destruction sure but the varagyr get to go up against PA units and have the Thegn challenge using the fist while the rest of the squad tears apart the enemy at i4 with lc.