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I really like the Tainted regeneration trait - so so good on an aggressive Warlord like the Demon Prince or a Lord of Contagion. It's like Necron living metal on crack - 1 wound on *each players* turn is amazing

I'd go neither HQ, but pick Lord of Contagion with Supperating plate and Tainted Regeneration WL trait. So hard to put him down and Tainted Regeneration is just bananas in a 4 player game with a wound back in each player turn. He's slower than the DP but with 4 players on the table there isn't much room to outmaneuver him without running into another player and he'll just walk through everything he touches.


DP is okay but the 4++ is money, as is the ability to use CP on VotLW and the boon table.

Twin Las and Power Scourge

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Does anyone see a use for the Lord of Contagion now that he has a pts drop? The 4+ invul is handy. I usually use a DP as Warlord, but the LoC is cheaper and I always kinda like cheap throw away HQs as my Warlord to disrupt Enemy Target Priorities.

What Warlord trait would work best on the LoC?

I really like the healing a wound per player turn. Those wounds are hard to get through. Sure if the enemy can one-round him it doesn't do anything, but more often than not they don't and the damage they did turns to waste as he heals it away, which is incredibly demoralising.

Also bear in mind that beyond the improved invulnerable, the LoC gets so much more from Stratagems.
He can roll on the boon table, while the DP can't. Some of those boons are very tasty. 7" move LoC, add one to all saving throws, (very lol with the Suppurating Plate).
You can give him VotLW. Wounding T5 on 2+ with a reroll of 1s...
He can also be healed with Grandfathers blessings. Opponent could take 5 wounds off him and when his turn rolls around again, he's back to full 6 wound complement, which is insane.

Depending on your meta reducing dmg (Rotten constitution) by 1 seems strong, but I find it kinda skornegy with Disgustingly resilient. Tainted Regeneration is like a free 2CP Grandfathers Blessings that stacks with the same.

The reason I don't like Rotten is that you get a DR save against that wound anyway. Revolting is preferable.

I don't find my Warlord gets 1 rounded that often, and in the case he does, often the preventative traits wouldn't have prevented enough anyway. The recursion benefit in the case where he isn't one rounded is so so strong I always consider Tainted. Sure you can use Grandfathers Blessings on a LOC, but likely you want to stack them anyway.

Problem with Plague surgeon is he is only good against Marine armies, and almost kinda needs the relic on top of that.

Outside of that he increases survivability from ~33->38%.

Now that's better than a lot of people give credit to, but still very hard to justify 65 points on when he doesn't get the +1/+1 to his melee. The +1/+1 is so good its a big shortchange not getting it.

I suppose if you were doing something like LoC/Blightlords/Tallyman/Surgeon in a Land Raider you could feel like there is some synergy there, but that's more quirky narrative play style over raw competitive.

Kzraahk wrote:
Would Nurglings (say 3 units) and a Herald in a separate Patrol be a viable alternative to Cultists/Poxwalkers?

Yes Nurglings are excellent. They're different to Cultists/Poxwalker screens in that they soak small arms firepower per point much better with their 5++/5+++. If the enemy shoots multi dmg weapons at them, then 1) they're falling on a 5++ wasting -AP, and 2) they aren't shooting those at your Plague Marines or Terminators, which is a win for the Deathguard force.

They're a great screener unit for making a more skew list where you're playing to the resiliency of the Deathguard to small arms rather than using Cultists/Poxwalkers as part of a recursion strategy. They're good at soaking mortals, they have good rules for getting out ahead of your force to where they need to be to function well as a screen compared to say Pox who are let down a lot by their lack of speed or Cultists who are cheap per point but very squishy when you factor in morale.

You don't have to take a Demon HQ either, any of the book HQ choices don't mind not having the Death Guard battleforged bonuses.

Foul Blightspawn is so ridiculously effective in the pox list I can't see how you can leave home without minimum one,
And much more preferably two. Biologus Putrifier/Tallyman are also effective choices.

I think you run either vehicles or Plague Marines in 1500 with the pox element, but not both - you just can't fit it for points. The Chaos Lord is only needed with Plague Marines. Fugaris Helm + Arch Contaminator can be given to a Plaguecaster or Putrifier.

The Entropy Cannons on the crawler are awful, never a reason not to take Spitters as side sponsons.

 blackmage wrote:
entropy cannons can take out those annoying heavy tanks, you dont need to move it and if you do you have the stratagem, i was trying to keep the list as much as similar than the topic author did, i dont play a list like that, i play Dg+alpha legion,always.

Sure, but in the author's original list he had Plague Spitters on the Crawler which you changed to Entropy Cannons, which is quite the heavy downgrade for the poxwalker style of list with Arch Contaminator

If a long range anti-tank element is required in general, much better off going with a Predator over a Plagueburst Crawler entirely. Crawler's BS4, BS5 when damaged hurts too much for AT role when opponent starts bringing -1 to hit mods and you have to move. Wasting stratagem CP point for a BS increase in very limited CP list to hit on 5s is not good. Predator with Lord starting at BS3 rerolling 1's is better.

Crawler is good with spitters in this type of list, can advance quickly with Blightbringer support to flame infantry squads to make new poxwalkers, and is always a serious threat in the role regardless of damage taken. When advancing you can hide behind it with characters/clouded infantry squad. Spitters reroll all wounds with Arch Contaminator

Kzraahk wrote:Difference is Preedators don't last a lot if they get focused. I've only had a PBC taken down once

Sure and for that reason why would you even focus a PBC with Entropy cannons, with your own long range anti tank. It's too weak of a threat. It takes punishment well but at the same time does very little back, with what it can even hit with 36" range.

A Predator can sit back and at least threaten Eldar/RavenGuard/Alpha Legion/Dark Angels/ anything that popped smoke, T8, etc etc. Personally in a pox list I don't even bother with the Predator over Foul Blight Spawns and mortal wound givers in the horde of infantry, but if I did for some reason want a sit back and plink firebase vehicle it wouldn't be a PBC.

buddha wrote:While the PBC is an all rounder with entropy cannons (and a cheap fire magnet at that) there is zero reason to take a PBC if you take spitters because the bloat drone performs that role 100% better. Hell, not being able to be locked in combat alone puts the drone above the PBC if you are wanting to be close.

I don't think it can be argued that the entropy cannons are the best anti-tank with its 4+ to hit base but with them the PBC far more survivable then the predator while maintaining a good ranged multi-damage threat.

The PBC vs the FBD you pay less points for the privilege of more flexibility, that's a rarity. Yes the FBD has FLY keyword and +1M, but it clearly pays a heavy premium in points for that ability when you compare to the PBC cost, who has T8 to T7, +1S and +2W on a generous damage chart. 100% better FBD is beyond exaggeration, all it does is move +1" more, and FLY. It doesn't also have a no LOS mortar and Heavy Stubber (more like Heavy Bolter) it can opt to use.

PBC can chip away at range while retaining the threat of a fast advance up and using the powerful spitters. FBD has to go forward always or it does nothing.

People have tried to 'mathhammer' the Entropy Cannon PBC as being good (in comparison to range tank duels with a predator) while in the reality of a competitive 40k environment it is anything but. There is no value in a unit that is only 'good' for tank dueling without even factoring in hit modifiers and short range.
There is value in a no line of sight weapon in the PB mortar, on a tough chassis, that also has access to the really strong Dual Plague Spitter weapon.

I play both PBC and FBD in my list. They are not the same but they are both strong.

buddha wrote:

With respect, you are ignoring both mathhammer (which cannot be argued with;statistics are facts) but also that trying to get close with a PBC to use plaugespitters will just lead it being locked in combat full stop. If you want plaugespitters, you take a bloat drone. If your arguments is that the PBC is bad I can understand that perspective, but if you take one you should be taking it with entropy cannons.

I'm not 'ignoring mathhammer'. I understand fully the very limited mathematical scenarios some people use to make a poor case for why the Entropy Cannons are good - these people ignore too many other variables and the realities of competitive 40k/listbuilding.
The PBC on it's first damage profile can advance 9 + D6 (2 dice highest with NoxB", shoot 9" for a max 24" threat. It's not easy to prevent it firing it's Plague Spitters if it chooses to do so. Sure it *might* get locked in combat (after overwatching) the following turn, but that's the following turn: it's already done it's job for you.

I take both drone and PBC, all with spitters. Spitters are too good not to take in any scenario for current competitive meta, either underpriced relative to everything else or everything else is overpriced. Entropy Cannons cost needs to be cut in half to even meet consideration.

If you don't like the idea of your plague spitters maybe being locked in combat after firing, then take all FBDs You will pay more points to lose toughness, wounds, mortars + HBs. Paying more points to lose scenario flexibility, toughness and other firepower- not good in competitive list hlbuilding.

 Jidmah wrote:
Please provide your own math on how predators are better than PBC.

Calling the argument bad does not disprove it. While I'm willing to believe you, you have provided no proof for your claims yet.

"How predators are better than PBC" Is a statement that completely misses the forest for the trees. Competitive 40k isn't about building lists around dueling ranged tanks.

Nevertheless, here is a sample of some relevant PBC damage spread comparisons that you can use to draw conclusions: https://imgur.com/a/KoIgU

Of particular note is the absolutely awful performance on the Entropy cannon -2 to hit charts.

This needs repeating but pbcs just do not do well with plaguespitters. Moving makes their main weapon all but useless, and they don't work as well as drones do at short range in any case. Specialization always beats generalization.

This needs repeating but pbcs just do not do well with Entropy cannons. You are better off spending the points on different units entirely because in competitive, PBC with Entropy cannons make your large model a nice looking paperweight that can often be ignored
The main weapon is a nice tool to have (no LOS artillery is clutch in competitive for threatening to deny the ability for otherwise minimal model units to sit on an objective marker behind a building), and if you want that tool, always take 2 plague spitters because they are ridiculously strong weapon profile, and the more you can fit in your army the better.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

ultrapogo wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
The second list is significantly better imo. A good starting point for a DG list is cultists/poxwalkers for screening and anti infantry, bloat drones with plague spitters for better anti infantry and mobility, and PBCs with entropy for anti tank.

Personally, I'd consider whether you are better served with the plague caster or running a demon prince for casting and melee carnage. Running a third set of cultists over PM might free those points up. Depends how you want to use them, more about preference than sheer power but I felt I needed to offer at least some sort of constructive criticism lol.

This needs repeating but pbcs just do not do well with plaguespitters. Moving makes their main weapon all but useless, and they don't work as well as drones do at short range in any case. Specialization always beats generalization.

Thanks for the advice
I was thinking of the plague caster to have more flexibility with my psychic powers, although I would only be swapping in Plague Wind for 30 ork boyz blobs. The PMs with blight launchers was to make use of the Arch-Contaminator on the lord.
The DP and FBDs have definitely been MVPs in my earlier games.

The first list, if you drop one PBC and take 20 Poxwalkers (and have the models to spawn new poxwalkers), it looks incredibly powerful, much too powerful for a 1000 point 'friendly' tournament.

The second list is a lot friendlier, it will give good games but a lot is riding on the Foetid Bloat Drones, an opponent who can put one or both down in the first turn will have a fairly easy ride against you. Easier said than done in 1k points 'friendly' tournament, but if many other players decide to go not-so-friendly with what they bring, you could struggle.

 blackmage wrote:
but why the hell you must take spitters on pbc when you can play foetid bloat drones+pbc...like in the list above.
PS: take down 2 foetid drones 1st turn in 1000pt game? nearly impossible, you cant usually at 2000pts games, you can imagine at 1000pt, i really dont know what kind of warhammer you play.

I play competitive, lol.

2 first turn in 1000 is admittedly a stretch, but in 2000 is doable.

I take all Spitters on FBD and PBC in the same list. Why would you ever not take Spitters, they are both cheaper and better on PBC than Entropy, especially when you have Arch Contaminator on W/L. Entropy are just that bad for the points on BS4 platform, they need to be 15-20pts for upgrade and then at least it's providing a decision when listbuilding.

Honestly if Spitters weren't an option all things considered as they are now you would be better to take 3 Blight Haulers over 3 PBC with Entropy, sure you lose the Mortar/stubber fire power and comparative toughness but at least 3 Blight Haulers can actually be more reliable in their damage dealing role with their effective +2BS over the PBC.

Jidmah wrote:
And yet you provide data for shooting at tanks...

Because that's the only thing the Entropy PBC is good for. I'm controlling giving it the best possible chance to 'succeed' in proving it's value. We already know Plague Spitters are an amazing weapon profile, more valuable against a much wider range of targets.

Considering that a quad lascannon predator is 190 and a PBC with entropy cannons is 146, let's normalize those numbers (multiply by PBC cost, divide by predator cost:
Predator
-1 to hit: 2.99
-2 to hit: 1.99


PBC vs T7
-2 to hit: 0.61 + 0.79 + 0.11 = 1.51

PBC vs T8:

-2 to hit: 0.45 + 0.58 + 0.11 = 1.14

Thanks for that. There you go. PBC, even normalized for points is comparatively poor in the role of being a tool for countering bigger models (and bear in mind there needs to be some consideration when normalising to the fact here that you can't 'buy' 1.3 Plague Crawlers instead of a LasPred). The Pred is over 30% better without factoring T8 in which makes PBC even worse.

I include in hightlighting here the -1 for the Predator as well to show an even bigger disparity. Entropy Cannons on the PBC have a horrifically short range for the job which translates into real on-the-table scenarios of having to move in order to bring about their firepower. Comparing both vs T73+ in a situation where the Predator can leverage it's 48" reach and the PBC has to move, the Predator is 100% better for the points.

The Predator on these numbers is clearly a better choice when factoring in the stratagem that removes the penalty for moving and firing, as again, you can't apply the stratagem to 1.3 PBCs.

The simple fact is DG don't make a good 'traditional gunline army' when it comes to heavy firepower against big models. You are far better off playing to the strengths of the codex over forcing square pegs into round holes with the PBC. Sure, its resilient to damage, but it hit's like a wet rag compared to what other books can achieve with similar role models.

SilverAlien wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
The simple fact is DG don't make a good 'traditional gunline army' when it comes to heavy firepower against big models. You are far better off playing to the strengths of the codex over forcing square pegs into round holes with the PBC. Sure, its resilient to damage, but it hit's like a wet rag compared to what other books can achieve with similar role models.

I'd argue focusing on units which can outlast the enemy is playing to our army's strength, and PBCs durability allows them to whether a lot more fire than equivalents in other armies. Now, as we see more and more armies get the -1 to ranged shots against them on their tanks (currently just admech and eldar) that may be less true, but currently our tanks are very hard to gun down.

Second, what exactly is our niche if not durability? We are merely okay in melee, and our anti infantry firepower is generally worse than our anti tank. Even drones are only good because of their durability, their firepower is laughable for cost.

We're a durable mid range/brawler army.

I'm not saying don't take PBC. It's certainly a durable option and the no-LOS mortar is a useful tool. Just when you do, for sponson choice take the actually good assault high str reroll wound Heavy Flamers, and not the almost useless Entropy cannons.

SilverAlien wrote:

Spoiler:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
We're a durable mid range/brawler army.

I'm not saying don't take PBC. It's certainly a durable option and the no-LOS mortar is a useful tool. Just when you do, for sponson choice take the actually good assault high str reroll wound Heavy Flamers, and not the almost useless Entropy cannons.

This is so idiotic, you are arguing based on the weapon being better with no consideration for how it interacts with the unit or its other weapons. What exactly do you do with this configuration?

If you have it sitting behind a screen, the plague spitters will do literally nothing until late game and only then if your screen buckles.

Advance it up the field? Your main gun is hitting on a 5+ doing less than nothing. You can take a helbrute with mixed loadout (lascannon and scourge) instead, have a 3+ on the move, and be useful consistently at close range not just 1-2 turns. Even better are the FW variants.

If you just want plaguespitters and don't feel the need for the anti tank main gun, then why even use a PBC? Drones do this far better, and honestly a drone in melee with probe is probably on par with a PBC firing main gun alone on a 5+.

Maybe you want a unit with some anti tank that is still useful if the enemy lacks tanks or big things entirely? Demon princes or melee drones are more consistently useful in this role, as would the aforementioned dreadnoughts. In particular look at the butcher cannon or grab bombard options on the FW variants.

PBC with entropy cannons has a role: you sit it behind a screen like you would a predator, a bit further up the field than normal, and trust it's high durability will allow it to tank incoming fire better than a predator would. It trades some damage and range for durability in a long range firefight. May not be a tradeoff everyone wants, but it at least has a purpose.

PBC with plaguespitters lacks any decent role. It's bad for all the same reasons the defiler or soul grinder is bad. Also, if you start arguing those are useful I'm going to laugh in your face.

Tone down the aggressive ignorance thanks.

On a PBC, the Plague Spitters are the 'main gun'. You can take only Drones if you want, never said not to. But if you don't think, for your plague spitter platform, that +1T, +2W, +1S, a bonus Heavy Mortar weapon and an extra 18 points up your sleeve vs +1M and FLY is a legitimate list building consideration for competitive then just stop replying to this topic and save yourself the blood pressure.

Your 'decent role/schizophrenic' argument is irrelevant rhetoric because we aren't discussing designed units with a pool of component with points values that are tabulated from the ground up. I can hypothesize a unit that has a 2 Lascannons and 10 strong melee attacks as base default. Oh no, it doesn't have a single role! But if the hypothetical unit cost 30 points each to put on the table, all of a sudden it doesn't matter does it?

You're saying that if you want strong guns, to take other things than the PBC with Entropy Cannons? Yes, that's what I've been saying. Is the PBC with Entropy Cannons a comparatively resilient platform for what it is? Of course it is. Do I think 3 or so PBC with Entropy Cannons sitting 'a bit up the field behind a screen' is a competitive tournament list? I don't.

orkswubwub wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm not a Death Guard player, but I'm curious what you guys think of the PBC spam list that's circulating. In case you haven't seen it, it's essentially 10 pbcs, epidemius, 2 poxbringers, and 2 demon princes. Just glancing through the DG codex, PBCs stood out to me as rock-hard units to spam, but this seems a little crazy.

It is far from a perfect list, but I really can't think of anything balanced that counters it effectively. Even good counters like flyer spam really don't grind through the tanks very well. They're just way too tough, especially once they hit T9, and charging them is going to hurtunless you go from outside 8". Even then, your combat unit is going to eat a ton of s7+ flamers when the tank dies or falls back.

I expect this list to make a big splash at LVO and precipitate some significant points and rules changes. What do you guys think?

I love how most of the thread breezes over probably the most relevant question for DG currently (or at least for DG opponents) with LVO approaching. Looking at the lists so far i have seen this exact list. I think this list suffers most against flyers and -1 to hit.

I tried to talk about this about a week ago, the groupthink in this thread is still "Why would you take spewers over awesome entropy cannonz!". I don't think you're going to find cutting edge top level competitive discussion here, this is more 'FLGS tactics'

 Jidmah wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Possibly because having an army comprised of spamming 10 of one model isn't competitive, it's the opposite, it's a spammy boring list meant to require no competition. Usual tourney try-hard trash.

Actually, we dismissed his argument because he didn't lose a single word about spamming PBC (the discussion was about pox walker armies with one or two PBC), the daemon codex was not released yet (not even previewed) and he simply edited all the numbers not fitting his argument out of quotes and claimed that his point was proven.

We?

Even without the Daemon codex and on a 1-1 basis the point was proven

You had no rebuttal. You demanded 'mathhammer,' then didn't like the mathhammer so decided mathhammer wasn't the be all and end all.

It's not like the conversation cam't be read over again as the fellow said.

This thread has a plain divide between 'FLGS competitive' and 'ITC top table competitive' it seems.

You can deepstrike the GUO/Rotigus but then he still has to sit out there for a turn. All the best offensive spells/shooting etc are less than 9".

COLD CASH wrote:
Anyone read this blog? great write up on a blightlord (surprising to say the least) cloud of flies pox bomb list.

The strat he uses is so simple and uncluttered i was actually laughing at how hard i try to combine stuff in my lists.

https://www.th3crossroads.com/single-post/2017/10/17/A-Time-of-Legends

totally changed my mind on blightlords.

strangely it also seems very meta, in a sense that his main cloud flies terminator bomb runs with growth pox. so an untargettable main strike force and an undesirable target to shoot in pox.

Yeah I read that with interest because I've been jamming around with Blightlords in combination with Nurglings and Cloud of Flies for the past 2 weeks, and it really does work well. I'm going to try it with the sorc, but part of the beauty of the module is you don't actually need a whole lot more than those 3 things, leaving plenty of room for other ways to go with the army.

 Mayk0l wrote:
Hi guys!
I want to add Nurgle daemons to my Death Guard. I got the daemons book but I can't seem to figure out where the synergies lie. I see plaguebearers and then look at the 60 painted poxwalkers I have and I see redundancy.
I have the new GUO, the model is so awesome so I want to include him but I'd like to hear your thoughts on why DG and Nurgle Daemons go well together!
Thanks

Generally the direct synergies are with the Daemon engines in the Death Guard codex. For example, you can take a Foetid Bload-Drone with a mower and buff it with Blades of Putrification and Virulent Blessing - for every 5 and 6 to wound you apply a mortal wound and failed saves take 4 damage - or, have a Poxbringer hang out near your plaguespewer daemon vehicles to give them +1 Str and an extra point of damage on 6's.

Then there's the indirect synergies - having Nurglings in a cheap battalion to cap objectives, provide interference for Cloud of Flies and be a general pain is very useful.

 WhatATravesty wrote:
What do you guys think about running Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard? As in, running two battalion detachments, one Death Guard, one Nurgle Daemons.

The Death Guard side can have MSUs of plague marines to camp on objectives, PBCs to run up and up spit on enemies, and a daemon prince to go ham with the Suppurating Plate and talons.

The Nurgle Daemon detachment can have large mobs of plaguebearers with nurglings to fill in the battalion requirement, with a poxbringer to help the plaguebearers and a Spoilpox Scrivener to help the plaguebeaers and the PBCs. All with 10 CP to have the PBCs explode, extra relics, and rerolls.

Thoughts?

The Nurgle Daemons have the better troops (both of them) so there's not really a point in running a Deathguard Battalion, especially because neither codex is super hungry for stratagems outside of rerolls.

-75 pts off three Myphitic Blight Haulers is where it's at.

The cover save rule for PMs is just a bonus you probably won't even use. Have your friendly Arhiman cast Prescience and Warptime on them and go to town. A potential -2 to hit in combat. Just a great jamming unit.