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Would you consider it fair if the heavy bolter had 4 shots standard?

Nobody uses them as they cost the same as an autocannon, but are much less effective.

Considering....
It used to have shots 1 + 2 sustrained fire (a SF die was basically a D3 with one face being a jam, which prevented you from firing next turn)... averaging about 3.7 shots per turn.
Then they used to also only cost as much as a guardsman, so now you pay double the price and get a weaker weapon... no wonder noone uses them.,,,,



Also multi-laser used to fire 3 sustained fire dice so would have about 4.5 shots per turn, would it make send to increase the shots here?

I'd maybe look at it if it were Salvo 2/4 or Heavy 4.

Given that AP 4 is almost useless in 7th ed, and Str 5 is suboptimal for a heavy weapon to say the least, I'd say it's fair. The sad part is, I don't think I'd take them even still.

The step from Str 5 to Str 6 is so huge that adding a shot to the heavy bolter can't save it.

Salvo 2/4 sounds about right to me.

I'd rather see a lot more Heavy, High RoF weapons use the Salvo profile.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Salvo 2/4 sounds about right to me.

I'd rather see a lot more Heavy, High RoF weapons use the Salvo profile.

Sounds right, but it's still crap. Only wounds T6 on a 5, doesn't penetrate MC armor or marine armor. Can't do much to scrub hull points, either. Useless.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Salvo 2/4 sounds about right to me.

I'd rather see a lot more Heavy, High RoF weapons use the Salvo profile.

Sounds right, but it's still crap. Only wounds T6 on a 5, doesn't penetrate MC armor or marine armor. Can't do much to scrub hull points, either. Useless.

We know what you think about anything that doesn't match a Scatterlaser in firepower or a Riptide in durability, Martel. We know.

Autocannons are good. They have niche. Multilasers are good. They also can do work. The weapon the forgefiend has has a pretty good niche too. It doesn't have to be scatterlaser good. But it has to be better than S5 AP 4. There's too much stuff that just doesn't care about the specific heavy bolter profile. Like every power armor list ever.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Salvo 2/4 sounds about right to me.

I'd rather see a lot more Heavy, High RoF weapons use the Salvo profile.

Salvo seems right for Space Marines, but for Guard weapon teams it doesn't suit. I cannot see the weapon teams being very capable at firing on the move.

Just take it away from guard. They don't need it.

Martel732 wrote:
Just take it away from guard. They don't need it.

They should still have the option, but I understand what you mean as they have the Multilaser and Autocannon.

I think a salvo 2/4 Heavy Bolter would actually be pretty useful. It lets them move without becoming entirely ineffectual, and gives enough shots that you're going to be able to put some serious dents into the appropriate targets.
If Heavy Bolters were 2/4 Salvo, I would consider using them, possibly even in a Skyhammer - Against rear armor, that gives enough shots to kill most tanks, (3.6 hull points against AV10, rather than the 2.5 you get from current HBs,) you'll put a serious dent in AV11, (1.8 vs 1.2,) and you'll kill 8 T4 models that don't have a save or 9 T3 models that don't have a save - That's not going to clear out an Ork Horde, exactly, but it IS going to put a big chunk of damage in most targets, and for 145 points, it's not bad at all.

That doesn't seem fair though unless Autocannons become Salvo 1/2

Tygre wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Salvo 2/4 sounds about right to me.

I'd rather see a lot more Heavy, High RoF weapons use the Salvo profile.

Salvo seems right for Space Marines, but for Guard weapon teams it doesn't suit. I cannot see the weapon teams being very capable at firing on the move.

I kind of think a lot of space marine weapons would make sense having slightly different rules and the word "astartes" in front of their names. Some mechanics just match the cinematic feel of a given faction better than others. For instance...

* Astartes Heavy Bolters become salvo 2/4 because it provides an interesting, flexible compliment to regular bolters and because marines walking around with enormous bolters blazing simply looks awesome.
* Astartes plasma weapons do not get hot because spontaneously dying from forgetting to vent your plasma kind of flies in the face of the action movie protagonist aesthetic that marines channel. Maybe even give marines the option to fire more lethal versions of their plasma weapons at the cost of making that gun unusable for the rest of the game. For instance, a plasma gun might become s8 Ap1 once per game, but cannot be fired again afterward as the (centuries old and martially-obsessed) marine allows it to safely cool down.
*Astartes frag grenades and missiles become large blasts. So that you actually have a reason to occassionally throw a frag.
* Astartes krak missiles inflict multiple hull points worth of damage on a penetrating hit to give them an anti-tank role.

That sort of thing. It matches the fluff of the army better (without becoming blatantly overpowered) and sort of makes sense. There's a difference between a teenaged guardsman frantically firing his plasma gun for the first time and a space marine who sleeps with his plasma pistol and ocassionally uses it to clean the bathtub when he isn't incinerating tyranids with it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That doesn't seem fair though unless Autocannons become Salvo 1/2

I'd be fine with doing that too.

I think 4 shots isn't quite enough.

I'd say make it Heavy 4 but also -1 to cover saves. The idea here is that the heavier shells slam into cover and explode, shredding the target with debris anyway, so there's less benefit to being in cover against it.

This doesn't make the weapon suddenly an ideal anti-marine weapon or anything, but does give it a bit of a niche as a long-range weapon that can put extra hurt on targets in cover, compared against flamers which are better at that but need to get a lot closer first.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I kind of think a lot of space marine weapons would make sense having slightly different rules and the word "astartes" in front of their names. Some mechanics just match the cinematic feel of a given faction better than others. For instance...

* Astartes Heavy Bolters become salvo 2/4 because it provides an interesting, flexible compliment to regular bolters and because marines walking around with enormous bolters blazing simply looks awesome.
* Astartes plasma weapons do not get hot because spontaneously dying from forgetting to vent your plasma kind of flies in the face of the action movie protagonist aesthetic that marines channel. Maybe even give marines the option to fire more lethal versions of their plasma weapons at the cost of making that gun unusable for the rest of the game. For instance, a plasma gun might become s8 Ap1 once per game, but cannot be fired again afterward as the (centuries old and martially-obsessed) marine allows it to safely cool down.
*Astartes frag grenades and missiles become large blasts. So that you actually have a reason to occassionally throw a frag.
* Astartes krak missiles inflict multiple hull points worth of damage on a penetrating hit to give them an anti-tank role.

That sort of thing. It matches the fluff of the army better (without becoming blatantly overpowered) and sort of makes sense. There's a difference between a teenaged guardsman frantically firing his plasma gun for the first time and a space marine who sleeps with his plasma pistol and ocassionally uses it to clean the bathtub when he isn't incinerating tyranids with it.

Not to poke holes, but I'm not sure I get where you're coming from for the majority of these points:
- I understand marine heavy bolters being salvo because marines are strong enough to lug them around and keep firing on the move, but I would at least give non-SM heavy bolters a point reduction to compensate for marines having better stuff. Balance and all that.
- Why only buff grenades/missiles for marines? Not quite sure why standard issue rockets create bigger explosions when fired by a steroid monster as opposed to a guardsman, the marines superior training is already covered by his BS stat.
- Finally, I was under the impression that gets hot! is used to represent anything from the gun overheating to destabilisation and misfire, not just some trigger happy idiot forgetting to vent his gun. That is to say, the problem is with the weapon and not the gunman. So why are marines getting special plasma that won't scratch their 3+ armour (which already means the marine only has a 1/18 chance of death)? Also, how would you balance the removal of gets hot other than a price hike for marine plasma? The one shot s8 round I wouldn't have a problem with, but apart from the last turn of the game I don't understand why anyone would sacrifice their weapon for it. The difference in skill between a marine or guardsman firing the gun is denoted by the difference is BS. Even a new guardsman will have been trained to shoot, and a d6 system will struggle to show this comparison accurately without giving marines BS5, or nerfing guardsmen into the ground to BS2 - that's ork territory!)

I do like the idea of making HBs salvo weapons though

"Bolters" are like the standard 40K weapon. Excess rules are not needed. Necrons have Guass, Dark Eldar have poison, Eldar have BladeStorm (although arguable this should be Shred according to the fluff, but I didn't write the rules). "Heavy" Bolters should have whatever special rule Bolters have, i.e. none.

Salvo 2/4 is a good start. It bumps them up to 4 shots on the units that start with them normally (like Razorbacks, Attack bikes, etc) and makes them at least usable for on foot units.

You also can't really mess much with the Str/AP. Assault cannons and Autocannons already fill the mid-str AP-"not power armour" niche. I would argue then that Heavy Bolters need to stay are str5, but at that point, the role the Heavy Bolter needs to fill is that of anti-infantry shredder.
Salvo 2/4 isn't going to cut it here. Assault cannons and Grav are just better and more versatile

Given the above, how does this sound? Str5, AP4, Salvo 3/5
Now the HB has enough shots to look appealing over an Assault cannon, especially since it is the "free" choice of the two.

Problem is that the assault cannon should then have around 8 shots, because it is a rotary autocannon.

Str 5 Ap 4 is not a good statline even for an infantry shredder in 7th ed because of the prevalence of cover. A single heavy flamer shot can kill 8 heavy bolters worth of units in one go.

Well if you buff the heavy bolter to 3/5 you're certainly going to have change something about the assault cannon. They're 20pts more than a heavy bolter atm.

Making it a 2/4 will also buff the tactical squad, as you would now have a heavy weapon you could give to a mobile squad.
Devastators as well, well at least without packing grav.

Everything has it's balance (or should anyway). Not everything can take a Heavy Flamer for example, and those that can have to get close.
Assualt cannons should be worth a lot more than a Heavy bolter, even with Salvo 3/5. Str 6 and Rending is really good.

I am working under the assumption that Heavy Bolters are currently garbage that they we are trying to make the work for A) their current points cost and B) that they do not over shadow other choices.
As soon as you start adding in str6, or ignores cover, or Shred, or some other such change, the HB becomes an "obvious choice". Obvious choices are things like Scatter lasers, Ion cannons and Grav Cannons. Ynnead knows we don't need more of those kind of options.

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 Galef wrote:
Everything has it's balance (or should anyway). Not everything can take a Heavy Flamer for example, and those that can have to get close.
Assualt cannons should be worth a lot more than a Heavy bolter, even with Salvo 3/5. Str 6 and Rending is really good.

I am working under the assumption that Heavy Bolters are currently garbage that they we are trying to make the work for A) their current points cost and B) that they do not over shadow other choices.
As soon as you start adding in str6, or ignores cover, or Shred, or some other such change, the HB becomes an "obvious choice". Obvious choices are things like Scatter lasers, Ion cannons and Grav Cannons. Ynnead knows we don't need more of those kind of options.

-

There's not enough mathematical space for all the weapons in the game. Some have niches, and some don't. There is no room for the heavy bolter.

Gladius spamming Razorbacks and Attack bikes. That is where the HB niche is. 3 Shots currently is meh, and the reason why Attack bike get upgraded to Multimeltas, but if you make it Salvo 3/5 it becomes a harder choice.
Most will leave the Razorback un-upgraded and be happy with the free 5 shots, while those using Attack Bikes will choose what there army needs. 5 str5 shots at 36", or 1 more Melta shot. If you already have plenty of melta and Grav elsewhere, the 5 shots is better.

Salvo 3/5 also helps Dev units required for a Gladius, since you can plant them in cover and blast out 20 str 5 shots a turn. Ask Guard players if they thing that many Str5 shots is good. Even 12 shots on the move is pretty nice.

-

There is no justification for making the heavy bolter shoot more than an assault cannon.

Because of the rotary barrel? Yeah I get that.
I was looking at it from strictly rules, but if you want it to be what it looks like, I would say at most Salvo 2/3, and at that point you really need to justify why a Space Marine would ever take that over any other choice.

Aside from Dreadnaught and Predators, can Space Marine take Autocannons anywhere else? Maybe the Heavy Bolter could be Str7, AP5, Salvo 2/3 and only 24" (to match the range and AP of the Bolter).
Would that A) set it apart from the Assault cannon? and/or B) not step too much on the toes of the Autocannon?

-

HB should have shred at its current point cost. Problem solved. It would become about as good as a scatter laser vs infantry and MC - and still would be weaker vs light armor. Hard to argue this isn't the perfect solution - because it it.

BTW bolters should have shred too but also - razorbacks shouldn't be free.

 Xenomancers wrote:
HB should have shred at its current point cost. Problem solved. It would become about as good as a scatter laser vs infantry and MC - and still would be weaker vs light armor. Hard to argue this isn't the perfect solution - because it it.

BTW bolters should have shred too but also - razorbacks shouldn't be free.

I would like bolters having shred.
It seems to be the thing atm that everyone should have a special snowflake for a standard small arm.

Giving bolter weapons shred would help vs MCs tremendously in a general sense.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
HB should have shred at its current point cost. Problem solved. It would become about as good as a scatter laser vs infantry and MC - and still would be weaker vs light armor. Hard to argue this isn't the perfect solution - because it it.

BTW bolters should have shred too but also - razorbacks shouldn't be free.

I would like bolters having shred.
It seems to be the thing atm that everyone should have a special snowflake for a standard small arm.

That's why I think it's the perfect solution. It would be insanely OP with gladius though - gladius is only not OP because bolters are terrible.

As much as I am against every standard weapon having it's own add-on rule, all Bolters having Shred at least makes sense fluffwise (exploding bullets) and helps immensely against so many things Marines struggle with (i.e. MCs)

But in an ideal world, Eldar Bladestorm would be Shred instead of the pseudo-Rending it is now.

While I like the idea of normal bolters having shred.... I can't help but feel that would simply make SM's and CSM's just a little too... well 'shreddy'.

I think some of the more 'soft' armies like Orks, Guard and Nids would really suffer. And yes that's even with the Nid's MC's.

EDIT: Obviously I'm biased as I play two of those 'soft' armies In all honesty I wouldn't be opposed to heavy bolters having shred, just not the normal variety. Although as Galef said, it does make a lot of sense fluff wise.

If bolters gained shred, they should lose AP 5. That would help slightly with the softer armies.