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If you have a SM IC join a unit of Cult Mechanicus, does the unit lose both the Chapter Tactics gained by the IC and the Canticles benefits from the Cult Mechanicus unit? Or do you keep both since it's technically not mixing chapter tactics?

How is canticles even close to being a chapter tactic? they aren't a space marine chapter

I know it isn't. But the new faqs seem to be going in the direction of cancelling out blanket army benefits in mixed units. I'm just wondering if this is one of those cases. I just came back to the game after along break.

 Nyghoma wrote:
I know it isn't. But the new faqs seem to be going in the direction of cancelling out blanket army benefits in mixed units. I'm just wondering if this is one of those cases. I just came back to the game after along break.

No the FAQ made it so that the SM armies that don't have Chpater Tactics count as having Chapter Tactics

I have to double check, but I also believe that some Canticles give benefits to units that are not Cult Mech.

The primary being Cawls, but I'll look now to see if any of the standard ones can be gained.

Some grant Stealth, Shrouded, or both. It wouldn't confer to the other models, but only one needs to have it for the unit to benefit.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Nyghoma wrote:
I know it isn't. But the new faqs seem to be going in the direction of cancelling out blanket army benefits in mixed units. I'm just wondering if this is one of those cases. I just came back to the game after along break.

No the FAQ made it so that the SM armies that don't have Chpater Tactics count as having Chapter Tactics

Raw it doesn't say that at all the FAQ ruling is explicitly that if you mix BA GK DA and SW with SM "neither benefit from chapter tactics" this is massively different because no BA model has the chapter tactics rule. in addition this rule is not in the BA GK SW or DA faq''s and so like the other SM rulings they don't apply unless SM are being used as they are separate codex''s not SM without chapter tactics.

U02dah4 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Nyghoma wrote:
I know it isn't. But the new faqs seem to be going in the direction of cancelling out blanket army benefits in mixed units. I'm just wondering if this is one of those cases. I just came back to the game after along break.

No the FAQ made it so that the SM armies that don't have Chpater Tactics count as having Chapter Tactics

Raw it doesn't say that at all the FAQ ruling is explicitly that if you mix BA GK DA and SW with SM "neither benefit from chapter tactics" this is massively different because no BA model has the chapter tactics rule. in addition this rule is not in the BA GK SW or DA faq''s and so like the other SM rulings they don't apply unless SM are being used as they are separate codex''s not SM without chapter tactics.

I don't see how that's different from what I've said.

I checked both codexes, the rule book, and the FAQs, and as far as I can tell, the following are all true:

All models with "Chapter Tactics" gain certain special rules (SM codex).

If a unit from the Space Marine codex joins or is joined by a unit from the "Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Dark Angels" the unit no longer benefits from chapter tactics (SM FAQ).

If a unit has the "Canticles of the Omnissiah" they are effected by the Canticles (CM codex).

A unit that contains at least one model with the Hit & Run, Crusader, Stubborn, Stealth, Adamantium Will,
Note that Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die, as well as many other special rules, are not on this list.

What this means, as far as i can tell is that the following examples are also true:

If an Independent character from Codex Space Marines with White Scars Chapter Tactics joins a unit from Codex Space Wolves, the unit loses Hit & Run.

If that same Independent Character joins a unit of Cult Mechanicus, they all benefit from Hit & Run. as well as the Incantation of the Iron Soul (Hit & Run and Stubborn/Fearless all effect the whole unit).

If a Space Wolves Independent Character and a Space Marine White Scars Independent Character both join the same Cult Mechanicus unit, the benefits from the Incantation of the Iron Soul, but loses Hit & Run. Interestingly, the whole unit does gain the Space Wolf unit's Counter Attack.

As long as the unit they join or are joined by is not from the previously mentioned codexes, a model from codex space marines still gets to use their chapter tactics while joined with another unit without chapter tactics (such as re-rolling 1s to hit with Bolters as Imperial Fists), but joined models that are not from the same chapter cannot do so. You would just roll any similar weapons separately.

No matter what sort of Independent character has joined a Cult Mechanicus Unit, models with the Canticles of the Omnissiah always benefit from the Litany of the Electromancer, Chant of the Remorseless, but any joined units do not.

This also goes for Crawl's Harmany of Metalurgy, Utterance of Neutralisation, and Wat Hymnal of Fortitude, unless joined units are from the Armies of the Imperium and are within 12" of Crawl.

I sort of doubt that this is all entirely what GW intended, but I guess Space Marines just aren't comfortable around Space Marines from other chapters and thus cannot perform as well.

I assume the main reason is to have it so White Scar and Raven Guard ICs and units joining or being joined by other space marine chapters don't get the extra special rules, which i can understand, but is does strangely nerf all of the other Chapter tactics.

 CrownAxe wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Nyghoma wrote:
I know it isn't. But the new faqs seem to be going in the direction of cancelling out blanket army benefits in mixed units. I'm just wondering if this is one of those cases. I just came back to the game after along break.

No the FAQ made it so that the SM armies that don't have Chpater Tactics count as having Chapter Tactics

Raw it doesn't say that at all the FAQ ruling is explicitly that if you mix BA GK DA and SW with SM "neither benefit from chapter tactics" this is massively different because no BA model has the chapter tactics rule. in addition this rule is not in the BA GK SW or DA faq''s and so like the other SM rulings they don't apply unless SM are being used as they are separate codex''s not SM without chapter tactics.

I don't see how that's different from what I've said.

In what you've said furious charge would stop working on BA units for example but it continues to work

U02dah4 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Nyghoma wrote:
I know it isn't. But the new faqs seem to be going in the direction of cancelling out blanket army benefits in mixed units. I'm just wondering if this is one of those cases. I just came back to the game after along break.

No the FAQ made it so that the SM armies that don't have Chpater Tactics count as having Chapter Tactics

Raw it doesn't say that at all the FAQ ruling is explicitly that if you mix BA GK DA and SW with SM "neither benefit from chapter tactics" this is massively different because no BA model has the chapter tactics rule. in addition this rule is not in the BA GK SW or DA faq''s and so like the other SM rulings they don't apply unless SM are being used as they are separate codex''s not SM without chapter tactics.

I don't see how that's different from what I've said.

In what you've said furious charge would stop working on BA units for example but it continues to work

What are you on about. Are you admitting the furious charge is a BA chapter tactic. Because that isn´t what crownaxe said at all. He said that the non Codex SM, marine armies count as having chpater tactics which means the likes of a WS IC would lose hit and run when he joins a SW unit (because the space wolves unit are now considered to have a chapter tactic. where as before WS never lost anything).

Furious charge is not a chapter tactic - when you say counts as chapter tactic it implies that it is and people may think it's stopped by this rule. However nowhere in the faq does it say it counts as a chapter tactic and nowhere does it say they count as having chapter tactics any reasoning on your part is infered. In fact because of the actual faq ruling if they counted as chapter tactics they would lose it


It says "neither benefit from chapter tactics" it does not explain why

Counts as chapter tactics = no furious charge + no chapter tactic

Instead actual raw = furious charge + no chapter tactic

U02dah4 wrote:
Furious charge is not a chapter tactic - when you say counts as chapter tactic it implies that it is and people may think it's stopped by this rule. However nowhere in the faq does it say it counts as a chapter tactic and nowhere does it say they count as having chapter tactics any reasoning on your part is infered. In fact because of the actual faq ruling if they counted as chapter tactics they would lose it


It says "neither benefit from chapter tactics" it does not explain why

Counts as chapter tactics = no furious charge + no chapter tactic

Instead actual raw = furious charge + no chapter tactic

It only implies it to people who want to consider it as such.

What CrownAxe was saying is that they count as having Chapter Tactics, but since they don't have Chapter Tactics, the rule does nothing except deny Codex Marines from using theirs. He was not saying anything to the affect that Counter Attack, Grim Resolve, and Furious Charge are Chapter Tactics. That was a step taken by someone else.

They SHOULD be Chapter Tactics, though. For one, this would address this issue completely the way GW thinks it should be played. For the Angels, it would also open up the possibility for adding in Successor Tactics like a couple we see from Forgeworld.

But they aren't, so Blood Angels keep Furious Charge while Templars would lose their Holy Crusaders and Righteous Zeal Special Rules.