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Does a Combi-Bolter get to attack twice at 24" and 4 times at 12"? If not, why is it even listed? If it does give you lots of shots, wouldn't that make it better than storm bolters?

A combi-bolter is a twin-linked bolter.

It synergises better with other units with bolters, making it a better choice for a character, whereas the storm bolter is just a bolter with a longer range, and ignores Rapid Fire.

Sure, you can assault with a storm bolter, but most of the time, if you have a combi-bolter, you were probably able to assault anyway, due to relentless.

I'd take the combi-bolter over the storm bolter.

Generally they aren't both available to a model - Loyalists get the storm bolter, traitors get the combi, so the only place you need to compare them is Cataphractti- and Tartaros- pattern terminator armours.

A Combi-bolter is more accurate, whilst a stormbolter has the chance of scoring two hits at over 12" instead of one.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
Does a Combi-Bolter get to attack twice at 24" and 4 times at 12"? If not, why is it even listed? If it does give you lots of shots, wouldn't that make it better than storm bolters?

Combi bolters have rapid fire and twin linked, storm bolters have assault 2. Given the choice of the two (does anything in the game actually get to pick one or the other?), I'd prefer the storm bolter. Always having a chance of hitting with 2 shots at long range fits my preferred tactics much better than a better chance of hitting with one shot or a better chance of hitting with two shots at close range.

Not that it matters because you can't take the things on anything but terminators and the odd character, so the chance of them having any meaningful impact is nil.

Anyone that thinks the Storm Bolter is better is insane.
1. Anything that's got Bolters in it is going to want to be in Rapid Fire range anyway, where the Combi-Bolter does better.
2. The Combi-Bolter is 2 points cheaper. For 3 Storm Bolters you get 5 Combi-Bolters.
3. Any platform that's actually forced into them is gonna be Relentless anyway, so Rapid Fire doesn't matter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone that thinks the Storm Bolter is better is insane.

A simple "I disagree" would be fine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Anything that's got Bolters in it is going to want to be in Rapid Fire range anyway, where the Combi-Bolter does better.

Unless it's a a unit where everything can take both, so you don't need to worry about rapid fire.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. The Combi-Bolter is 2 points cheaper. For 3 Storm Bolters you get 5 Combi-Bolters.

True, but at the point cost for most stuff with marines, that's not really a big deal either way.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Any platform that's actually forced into them is gonna be Relentless anyway, so Rapid Fire doesn't matter.

Yes and no. It doesn't matter for assault, but you can still have better effective range on the storm bolter over the combi.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone that thinks the Storm Bolter is better is insane.

A simple "I disagree" would be fine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Anything that's got Bolters in it is going to want to be in Rapid Fire range anyway, where the Combi-Bolter does better.

Unless it's a a unit where everything can take both, so you don't need to worry about rapid fire.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. The Combi-Bolter is 2 points cheaper. For 3 Storm Bolters you get 5 Combi-Bolters.

True, but at the point cost for most stuff with marines, that's not really a big deal either way.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Any platform that's actually forced into them is gonna be Relentless anyway, so Rapid Fire doesn't matter.

Yes and no. It doesn't matter for assault, but you can still have better effective range on the storm bolter over the combi.

1. They won't have access to both. Combi-Bolters don't exist in Codex Space Marines and Storm Bolters don't exist in Codex Chaos Space Marines. Plus in your argument you'd have to buy them for EVERYONE in the unit. Nobody is inane enough to do that.
2. You're the one assuming the assumption a unit will have access to both and can purchase a lot. For the sake of argument, we will use Chaos Chosen because they're easy to ally into any Marine army with Cypher. Now let us assume they have access to Storm Bolters and we want these instead of special weapons for whatever reason. You'd have 3 Storm Bolters and two Bolters, or 5 Combi Bolters for all the same price. At first the storm bolters have a minor advantage at 5.3 to 4.4 hits. Once they Infiltrate you'd have the disadvantage at 6.7 to 9 hits.
Sternguard would be a good comparison to this, but buying either means they lose Special Ammo so it is dumb to do that. Or they wouldn't with Combi-Bolters. I don't know. The entry doesn't exist for them.
Then you got Henchmen from the Inquisition where you get 1 point bolters or 5 point Storm Bolters. Pretty sure any Inquisitor player can tell you how much better the extra bodies with Bolters is.
3. It isn't an effective range because any unit with access to both wants to be close, and anything trying to stay back will never take either weapon. Ergo, the Combi-Bolter has more Tactical useage even though both aren't good.

I used to have storm bolters on my Imperial Guard sergeants

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't an effective range because any unit with access to both wants to be close, and anything trying to stay back will never take either weapon. Ergo, the Combi-Bolter has more Tactical useage even though both aren't good.

Actually I put a storm bolter on every vehicle I can. It provides a degree of insurance, giving me an nth% chance of not losing my good weapon on a weapon destroyed result.

At 12 inches and under the combi has advantage. Being twin-linked you're effectively rolling 4...ish dice for maximum of 2 damage. Between 12 and maximum though, you're rolling 2 for 1 damage against the storm's 2 for 2, making the storm the better mid-range unit choice.

Broadly, they cover the same (ok, similar) niche in different ways,but it feels more like the combi is the one being stretched to be like the storm, and not the other way around.

I'd also give the storm bolter a slighted edge as its way of delivering the effect leaves it open to somehow buff it by giving it twin-linked as well.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't an effective range because any unit with access to both wants to be close, and anything trying to stay back will never take either weapon. Ergo, the Combi-Bolter has more Tactical useage even though both aren't good.

Actually I put a storm bolter on every vehicle I can. It provides a degree of insurance, giving me an nth% chance of not losing my good weapon on a weapon destroyed result.

At 12 inches and under the combi has advantage. Being twin-linked you're effectively rolling 4...ish dice for maximum of 2 damage. Between 12 and maximum though, you're rolling 2 for 1 damage against the storm's 2 for 2, making the storm the better mid-range unit choice.

Broadly, they cover the same (ok, similar) niche in different ways,but it feels more like the combi is the one being stretched to be like the storm, and not the other way around.

I'd also give the storm bolter a slighted edge as its way of delivering the effect leaves it open to somehow buff it by giving it twin-linked as well.

You can do the same for Chaos vehicles for 3 points instead.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Not that it matters because you can't take the things on anything but terminators and the odd character, so the chance of them having any meaningful impact is nil.

You can take six of them in a squad of Chosen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pretty sure any Inquisitor player can tell you how much better the extra bodies with Bolters is.

Why don't you tell us? You know everything.

I would also like to know your opinion on Diogenes of Sinope -- I'm sure you have one that involves lots of hyperbole, chest-thumping, and LOL's.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. They won't have access to both. Combi-Bolters don't exist in Codex Space Marines and Storm Bolters don't exist in Codex Chaos Space Marines. Plus in your argument you'd have to buy them for EVERYONE in the unit. Nobody is inane enough to do that.

That would depend on what the unit is. I'd love to have a tac squad armed with a bunch of stormbolters, if that was legal. Command squads can take them, which has been worthwhile every now and then.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. You're the one assuming the assumption a unit will have access to both and can purchase a lot. For the sake of argument, we will use Chaos Chosen because they're easy to ally into any Marine army with Cypher. Now let us assume they have access to Storm Bolters and we want these instead of special weapons for whatever reason. You'd have 3 Storm Bolters and two Bolters, or 5 Combi Bolters for all the same price. At first the storm bolters have a minor advantage at 5.3 to 4.4 hits. Once they Infiltrate you'd have the disadvantage at 6.7 to 9 hits.
Sternguard would be a good comparison to this, but buying either means they lose Special Ammo so it is dumb to do that. Or they wouldn't with Combi-Bolters. I don't know. The entry doesn't exist for them.
Then you got Henchmen from the Inquisition where you get 1 point bolters or 5 point Storm Bolters. Pretty sure any Inquisitor player can tell you how much better the extra bodies with Bolters is.

Actually, I said in my first post that I was pretty sure no one had a choice of both. And you're still overlooking that whole "better at range" thing. And assuming that you only have the points left to equip one unit with combi bolters or bolters and a few storm bolters, for some strange reason.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. It isn't an effective range because any unit with access to both wants to be close, and anything trying to stay back will never take either weapon. Ergo, the Combi-Bolter has more Tactical useage even though both aren't good.

Yes, of course. I'd forgotten that if you're building a unit for long range shooting, you will naturally want to take them in close, because slayer-fan gets to decide how the rest of us play our armies.

Loyalist Marines have 2 different Terminator units. One for range, where most weapons are 24" range and one for assault, where the whole unit swaps storm bolters for something.

So while the combi bolter is better if you're using a more 'rounded' unit like Chaos Space Marines where you'll have a mix of range and melee, the goal for normal Terminators for loyalists isn't necessarily to assault with them.

In that case, the 2 shots at 13-24" range makes plenty of sense and isn't an awful choice over the combi bolter imo.

Nvs wrote:
Loyalist Marines have 2 different Terminator units. One for range, where most weapons are 24" range and one for assault, where the whole unit swaps storm bolters for something.

So while the combi bolter is better if you're using a more 'rounded' unit like Chaos Space Marines where you'll have a mix of range and melee, the goal for normal Terminators for loyalists isn't necessarily to assault with them.

In that case, the 2 shots at 13-24" range makes plenty of sense and isn't an awful choice over the combi bolter imo.

Also, command squads can take them. granted there's generally not a great reason to do that since most of the guys you'd stick with a command squad aren't very shooty (and Lias really belongs in sternguard), but it's doable. And fun.

They can work for Sororitas in certain situations too. I run a Dominion squad in Kill Team, two flamers, two storms in a rhino leaves you with a scouting nun-bus putting out six bolter shots at nominal range or switching to two bolt shots and two templates at close range.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. They won't have access to both. Combi-Bolters don't exist in Codex Space Marines and Storm Bolters don't exist in Codex Chaos Space Marines. Plus in your argument you'd have to buy them for EVERYONE in the unit. Nobody is inane enough to do that.

That would depend on what the unit is. I'd love to have a tac squad armed with a bunch of stormbolters, if that was legal. Command squads can take them, which has been worthwhile every now and then.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. You're the one assuming the assumption a unit will have access to both and can purchase a lot. For the sake of argument, we will use Chaos Chosen because they're easy to ally into any Marine army with Cypher. Now let us assume they have access to Storm Bolters and we want these instead of special weapons for whatever reason. You'd have 3 Storm Bolters and two Bolters, or 5 Combi Bolters for all the same price. At first the storm bolters have a minor advantage at 5.3 to 4.4 hits. Once they Infiltrate you'd have the disadvantage at 6.7 to 9 hits.
Sternguard would be a good comparison to this, but buying either means they lose Special Ammo so it is dumb to do that. Or they wouldn't with Combi-Bolters. I don't know. The entry doesn't exist for them.
Then you got Henchmen from the Inquisition where you get 1 point bolters or 5 point Storm Bolters. Pretty sure any Inquisitor player can tell you how much better the extra bodies with Bolters is.

Actually, I said in my first post that I was pretty sure no one had a choice of both. And you're still overlooking that whole "better at range" thing. And assuming that you only have the points left to equip one unit with combi bolters or bolters and a few storm bolters, for some strange reason.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. It isn't an effective range because any unit with access to both wants to be close, and anything trying to stay back will never take either weapon. Ergo, the Combi-Bolter has more Tactical useage even though both aren't good.

Yes, of course. I'd forgotten that if you're building a unit for long range shooting, you will naturally want to take them in close, because slayer-fan gets to decide how the rest of us play our armies.

1. You might like the idea, but how many points you want to pay for it? For the regular price, I'd just continue with Bikers and Scouts. For 1 point? I'd still take both the former because of how the Tactical Marine loadout works.
2. You keep saying it is better at range, but I showed it wasn't by a huge margin and you could spend the points elsewhere if you want something for longer range, where both fail spectacularly. In which case, the Combi-Bolter proves better again.
Don't forget it is better for Overwatch too.
3. If you're taking a unit for long range shooting, you're not taking either weapon was my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding your Command Squad bit, you can take literally any other Special Weapon.

Combi bolter is better generally unless the model is bs 5.

Combi-bolters are hands down better on terminators because they can still charge with them, on infantry it really depends exactly how fast they or whoever they're shooting at are moving, whether they're planning to assault etc. The number of variables make it impossible to call.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. You might like the idea, but how many points you want to pay for it? For the regular price, I'd just continue with Bikers and Scouts. For 1 point? I'd still take both the former because of how the Tactical Marine loadout works.

For my local, not full of WAAC tourny players, I could live with 5 points. I'd love if it was cheaper, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:2. You keep saying it is better at range, but I showed it wasn't by a huge margin and you could spend the points elsewhere if you want something for longer range, where both fail spectacularly. In which case, the Combi-Bolter proves better again.
Don't forget it is better for Overwatch too.

I'm not sure what "something other" I'd want to give my infantry for longer ranged stuff. I mostly use tanks and artillery for the really long ranged stuff, for infantry I want stuff that can deal with other infantry that get through the fire from the heavy stuff.

And yes, the combi is better for overwatch. I'd rather not be in the position where I need it to be used for such, though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:3. If you're taking a unit for long range shooting, you're not taking either weapon was my point.

Such as...what?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding your Command Squad bit, you can take literally any other Special Weapon.

Yeah, but I don't want any other special weapon.