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At the moment battlewagons have 1 semi-useful configuration and 1 meh configuration, they have 1 detachment that gives them scout....which doesn't really matter all that much but can be useful sometimes.

So, the BW is AV 14/12/10, has a 3in or so front armor facing and a 6-7in long side facing, in other words its easy to hit side armor. It can mount 4 Rokkitz or 4 Big Shootas as well as a Kill Kannon and a number of other weapons like a kannon. It comes without any guns and costs 110pts and can carry 22 bodies. In other words it has slightly less then twice the capacity as a Trukk and 6 more armor value but costs 3 and 1/2 times as much...AND the Trukk comes standard with a Rokkit or Big Shoota for free, So in reality the BW is more then 4x the cost of a Trukk.

The argument for the massive increase in price between a Trukk and a Battlewagon is that the BW has a lot more survivability because AV14 is rare, I would agree except for the stated fact that its sides are HUGE compared to its relatively small front end.

USES: A Trukk and a BW for the most part have the exact same use, transport. Occasionally you will see someone try to be cute and load the BW up with weapons and try and turn it into a weapons platform, they might even go so far as to put Lootas inside to give it the appearance of more firepower. However, fully loaded a BW costs 175pts and has a single S8 AP3 large blast (Ranged 24....) ordinance weapon, 4 Big shootas/rokkitz (which will have to snapfire most of the game) and maybe a Kannon or Zzap gun if they are feeling uppity. All of that is at BS2 and if you use the Kill Kannon its BS1, on an AV14/12/10 platform.

Ok, so now that the boring current situation is out of hand how do we go about making this unit better. Well for starters I would propose it come standard with 4 Big Shootas/rokkitz. That totals out at 20pts of upgrades, So now you are at 110pts where as before you were at 130. Now here is the kicker, there is no way to change the AV dramatically because if you add +1 armor to the sides it wont make to much of a difference but will necessitate a huge rise in cost, AV14/13/10 should be costly. However, by giving it a modified Ramshackle Rule that allows it to have a 5++ against shooting attacks you can at least give it a bit more toughness.

And those changes immediately makes the BW worth using. As far as weapons I would suggest the Kill Kannon be replaced with something useful but as to what I won't speculate on because I stopped trying to use the damned thing because it never was worth the 30pts it costs.

Give it 13 of armor on side armor, make the kill kannon heavy instead of ordonance, reduce a little bit the cost on the big shootas and rokkitz and you would have a much more decent fire platform. Reduce a bit the base cost for the battlewagon and you have a great big transport.

epronovost wrote:
Give it 13 of armor on side armor, make the kill kannon heavy instead of ordonance, reduce a little bit the cost on the big shootas and rokkitz and you would have a much more decent fire platform. Reduce a bit the base cost for the battlewagon and you have a great big transport.

Kill Kannon is still S8 AP3 Ranged 24....on a BS2 platform its going to scatter everywhere when you fire it, its not worth 30pts. You can't really reduce the price of Big Shootas/Rokkitz to much more, they are already 5pt upgrades. Giving it AV13 is good but im not sure I would want it that strong for that price.

It's going to scatter two third of the time of about inches which is the size of hte large blast. In most cases where you fire an ennemy squad, you will still hit a few people. It's not great, but its not bad either. You can easily kill far more than 30 pts of ennemy models with a blast like that.

Take one, load it up with 4 rokkits and a ram, put as many tankbustas as you can in it, be happy it's open topped and kill just about anything with that many shots, BS 2 be fethed.

IMHO they are useful even with the current stats, it's just bikers and trukks spam works better. To make the BW really competitive (for orks) they should have a 20-30 points price cut and the chance to be dedicated transports not only to nobz (and similar) units, at least tankbustas and burnas could select it as a dedicated transport or even units of boyz that are joined by IC.

I always find it a little annoying when Ork players complain about their vehicle models. Yes, of course the Trukk and Battlewagon are less than ideal, they've been cobbled together from bits of scrap. If you want to run a more sensible or tactically optimised vehicle design, buy a cheap toy tank and convert it, rather than spending £35 on a vehicle you don't like out of pure laziness.

That said, I think the only real tactical issue with the Battle Wagon is that it's overcosted. Orks should be able to field swarms of rubbish vehicles. I can't, however, fault the Battlewagon for its versatility; the number of options available to it (providing you aren't desperate to make something that outclasses a Land Raider) is great, and it's all very Orky and fun, which is something often overlooked these days.

No change. Revert to old Deff Rolla rules. Viola!

Blitz Brigade becomes a terrifying a table controller Outflanking wagons....

 Spineyguy wrote:
I always find it a little annoying when Ork players complain about their vehicle models. Yes, of course the Trukk and Battlewagon are less than ideal, they've been cobbled together from bits of scrap. If you want to run a more sensible or tactically optimised vehicle design, buy a cheap toy tank and convert it, rather than spending £35 on a vehicle you don't like out of pure laziness.

That said, I think the only real tactical issue with the Battle Wagon is that it's overcosted. Orks should be able to field swarms of rubbish vehicles. I can't, however, fault the Battlewagon for its versatility; the number of options available to it (providing you aren't desperate to make something that outclasses a Land Raider) is great, and it's all very Orky and fun, which is something often overlooked these days.

Well the Trukk is a pretty great transport really. It isn't lazy to buy the GW Battlewagon, some people like to only use the official models and some (myself included) would consider using a different, wider model Modelling For Advantage. It's small AV14 facing is, I assume, meant to be it's downside but it isn't taken properly into account for it's costing. Compare it to the reasonably costed Gun Wagon and it's way overpriced for what it offers. The Battlewagon has no versatility, it's not a firebase vehicle for us it's a transport. The Killkannon, taking more than one weapon, the attachable Mek Gunz, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Extra Armour, Grabbin' Klaw, Wreckin' Ball are all traps. The points are wasted and better spent elsewhere. The Blitz Brigade changes it to a more useable firebase but only for Tankbustas and Flash Gitz, the latter of those is terrible. You might think it's Orky to be able to strap loads of ineffective guns to something resulting in an even more overcosted and comparatively less effective vehicle but I disagree. It has lots of options but when those options are really bad choices those options may as well not be there.

To fix the Battlewagon it just needs to be 90 points again and ideally regain the old Deff Rolla rules. At the current cost AV13 sides and AV11 rear would also keep me happy.

Dude grot riggers are not traps

SemperMortis wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Give it 13 of armor on side armor, make the kill kannon heavy instead of ordonance, reduce a little bit the cost on the big shootas and rokkitz and you would have a much more decent fire platform. Reduce a bit the base cost for the battlewagon and you have a great big transport.

Kill Kannon is still S8 AP3 Ranged 24....on a BS2 platform its going to scatter everywhere when you fire it, its not worth 30pts. You can't really reduce the price of Big Shootas/Rokkitz to much more, they are already 5pt upgrades. Giving it AV13 is good but im not sure I would want it that strong for that price.

It's actually S7 ap 3. sorry to be the bummer

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Dude grot riggers are not traps

It is when you've probably got a Mek in there who can repair weapon destroyed, immobilised and hull points as well as save your Warboss or Nob from a challenge. After the unit gets out regaining hull points won't make much difference anyway and before the unit gets out you probably won't have time to even try. It's 10 points better spent on something else IMO.

xlDuke wrote:
Well the Trukk is a pretty great transport really. It isn't lazy to buy the GW Battlewagon, some people like to only use the official models and some (myself included) would consider using a different, wider model Modelling For Advantage. It's small AV14 facing is, I assume, meant to be it's downside but it isn't taken properly into account for it's costing. Compare it to the reasonably costed Gun Wagon and it's way overpriced for what it offers. The Battlewagon has no versatility, it's not a firebase vehicle for us it's a transport. The Killkannon, taking more than one weapon, the attachable Mek Gunz, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Extra Armour, Grabbin' Klaw, Wreckin' Ball are all traps. The points are wasted and better spent elsewhere. The Blitz Brigade changes it to a more useable firebase but only for Tankbustas and Flash Gitz, the latter of those is terrible. You might think it's Orky to be able to strap loads of ineffective guns to something resulting in an even more overcosted and comparatively less effective vehicle but I disagree. It has lots of options but when those options are really bad choices those options may as well not be there.

To fix the Battlewagon it just needs to be 90 points again and ideally regain the old Deff Rolla rules. At the current cost AV13 sides and AV11 rear would also keep me happy.

I'd always err on the side of lenience before I judged a Battlewagon to be modelled for advantage. We have to assume (as we do with many things in our hobby) that people are not going to wilfully abuse their freedoms and sensational internet horror stories about people scratch-building Storm Ravens the size of Land Speeders and suspiciously minute Daemon Princes can't be allowed to dictate what we will and won't tolerate as hobbyists. If my opponent presents a carefully-crafted, if slightly undersized model that isn't utterly ridiculous then I am more than willing to let it slide for the sake of a good game. Aside from anything else, it's virtually impossible to accurately predict the situations your vehicle is going to be in for the purposes of scratch-building, and I'd maintain that very few people would genuinely be that cynical and cheesy.

That said, I do play in what I increasingly consider a uncommonly casual metagame. Perhaps other communities really are that toxic and people will go to that sort of length to gain a negligible advantage. If that is the case, however, I believe that an 'if you can't beat them, join them' attitude is part of the problem, and that the hobby in general would be the stronger if more people stuck to their guns and played the way they want, rather than mindlessly joining the power-gamer brigade.

But yes, the Battlewagon's main problem is its cost. I disagree that the upgrades are a total waste of points, but they are overpriced for what they do. I never really cared for the old Deff Rolla, but that was mostly because literally every Battlewagon in the game used to have one and variety is the spice of life. Perhaps a middle-ground between that version and the more recent one would be best. The point remains that Ork vehicles should absolutely be inferior on an individual basis to their Imperial equivalents, but should also be available in much greater numbers. I think the versatility is there, providing you don't consider any of the options 'unviable' (which is often just WAAC-speak for '0.00001% less likely to win'). There's nothing wrong with an inferior battle-tank if it costs half as much as a Leman Russ, or a slightly rubbish assault vehicle that you won't care about too much if it gets 'sploded early-on. Again, the point is to have a good fight, not to win on maths alone.

 Spineyguy wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
Well the Trukk is a pretty great transport really. It isn't lazy to buy the GW Battlewagon, some people like to only use the official models and some (myself included) would consider using a different, wider model Modelling For Advantage. It's small AV14 facing is, I assume, meant to be it's downside but it isn't taken properly into account for it's costing. Compare it to the reasonably costed Gun Wagon and it's way overpriced for what it offers. The Battlewagon has no versatility, it's not a firebase vehicle for us it's a transport. The Killkannon, taking more than one weapon, the attachable Mek Gunz, Deff Rolla, Grot Riggers, Extra Armour, Grabbin' Klaw, Wreckin' Ball are all traps. The points are wasted and better spent elsewhere. The Blitz Brigade changes it to a more useable firebase but only for Tankbustas and Flash Gitz, the latter of those is terrible. You might think it's Orky to be able to strap loads of ineffective guns to something resulting in an even more overcosted and comparatively less effective vehicle but I disagree. It has lots of options but when those options are really bad choices those options may as well not be there.

To fix the Battlewagon it just needs to be 90 points again and ideally regain the old Deff Rolla rules. At the current cost AV13 sides and AV11 rear would also keep me happy.

I'd always err on the side of lenience before I judged a Battlewagon to be modelled for advantage. We have to assume (as we do with many things in our hobby) that people are not going to wilfully abuse their freedoms and sensational internet horror stories about people scratch-building Storm Ravens the size of Land Speeders and suspiciously minute Daemon Princes can't be allowed to dictate what we will and won't tolerate as hobbyists. If my opponent presents a carefully-crafted, if slightly undersized model that isn't utterly ridiculous then I am more than willing to let it slide for the sake of a good game. Aside from anything else, it's virtually impossible to accurately predict the situations your vehicle is going to be in for the purposes of scratch-building, and I'd maintain that very few people would genuinely be that cynical and cheesy.

That said, I do play in what I increasingly consider a uncommonly casual metagame. Perhaps other communities really are that toxic and people will go to that sort of length to gain a negligible advantage. If that is the case, however, I believe that an 'if you can't beat them, join them' attitude is part of the problem, and that the hobby in general would be the stronger if more people stuck to their guns and played the way they want, rather than mindlessly joining the power-gamer brigade.

But yes, the Battlewagon's main problem is its cost. I disagree that the upgrades are a total waste of points, but they are overpriced for what they do. I never really cared for the old Deff Rolla, but that was mostly because literally every Battlewagon in the game used to have one and variety is the spice of life. Perhaps a middle-ground between that version and the more recent one would be best. The point remains that Ork vehicles should absolutely be inferior on an individual basis to their Imperial equivalents, but should also be available in much greater numbers. I think the versatility is there, providing you don't consider any of the options 'unviable' (which is often just WAAC-speak for '0.00001% less likely to win'). There's nothing wrong with an inferior battle-tank if it costs half as much as a Leman Russ, or a slightly rubbish assault vehicle that you won't care about too much if it gets 'sploded early-on. Again, the point is to have a good fight, not to win on maths alone.

I agree with all that, it seems I misinterpreted your idea. There's nothing wrong with conversions or scratch builds but purposefully using a wider model in order to make more use of the AV14 seems a bit far for me. I also game in a super relaxed group but those tiny Daemon Princes and miniature flyer transports wouldn't go down well. Despite the relaxed nature of our group there's still plenty of things I wouldn't use because they are too glaringly bad, a kitted out shooty Wagon being one. If it was appropriately costed and useful then the small front arc would just be one of the ways it's inferior to, to use your example, Imperial counterparts. I don't want a Land Raider out of my Wagons I want a decently tough, slightly role-confused ramshackle tank. On that note making the Killkannon S8 in addition to a cheaper or improved chassis would be a pretty good improvement to its versatility. And bring back the Boomgun for Looted Wagons!

 Spineyguy wrote:
I always find it a little annoying when Ork players complain about their vehicle models. Yes, of course the Trukk and Battlewagon are less than ideal, they've been cobbled together from bits of scrap. If you want to run a more sensible or tactically optimised vehicle design, buy a cheap toy tank and convert it, rather than spending £35 on a vehicle you don't like out of pure laziness.

That said, I think the only real tactical issue with the Battle Wagon is that it's overcosted. Orks should be able to field swarms of rubbish vehicles. I can't, however, fault the Battlewagon for its versatility; the number of options available to it (providing you aren't desperate to make something that outclasses a Land Raider) is great, and it's all very Orky and fun, which is something often overlooked these days.

They aren't versatile at all though. You can spend 20pts to give it 4 rokkitz, 10 more pts to give it a Kannon, you don't want the Kill Kannon because if you fire it everything else is hitting on 6s AND who cares about a 30pt S7 (thanks for the correction) AP3 Large blast? So if you give it a Ram you are now spending 145pts for a short ranged (24in) AV14/12/10 vehicle that can put out 5 S8 shots at BS2 a turn. Since its so short ranged the chances are that your side armor is going to be exposed and compromised. Compare that to a Predator Annihilator which costs 5pts less but has 3 S9AP2 Ranged 48 shots at BS4. Which would you prefer in your army? Short ranged S8 shots that will hit 1/3rd the time or Long ranged S9 shots which will hit 2/3rds the time. AND after all of that keep in mind that Predator annihilators are considered sup-optimal at best.

As far as the rest of the gear...

Deff Rolla: Garbage
Zzap Gun: Garbage
Lobba: Why? you can just take Mek Gunz for 18pts each.
Ard Case: Literally no reason to ever take this
Boarding Plank: 15pts for +2 inches on the charge, not terrible but not really worth taking
Extra Armor: Does anybody ever take this?
Grabbin Klaw: 1/2 chance to immobilize a vehicle within 2in of the BW for a single turn, does not remove an HP. Again, does anyone ever take this?
Grot Riggers: I don't use these and I can't remember anyone ever taking them. Very rarely do my BW's die from HP stripping. Usually someone hits it with AP1-2 and adding in open topped, blows it up.
Kill Kannon: 30pts for a S7 AP3 large blast with 24in range, no thanks.
Red Paint Job: Again nobody takes this
Stikkbomb Chucka: Literally the most useless upgrade available. Any unit actually using a BW already has Stikk bombs.
Wreckin Ball: a S9 AP4 Assault D3 weapon with a HUGE RANGE of 3inches.....If you are close enough to use this stupid thing you were better off paying for the Deff Rolla that doesn't work anymore.

The battlewagon has it's uses. The face it has low side armour is defined by the fact it will generally be part of a wave of orks that rush down the table whereas something like a landraider is expected to operate solo. Consider the blitzbrigade formation, with it's five wagons. When deployed in a line your opponent cannot draw fire past the AV14 front of the wagon rolling beside it.

Basically this means the wagon must be deployed as part of a phalanx and do require support. They in turn provide your force with a bulkhead.

As for upgrades, I would agree with Semper Mortis's assessment, which exception to the lobba and the grot riggers. For the lobba I say why not? It's a useful weapon at a discount price. For players who believe in only one weapon on the wagon, it may actually be the best choice. (I believe in at least 4x rokkits myself.) The grot riggers can be useful depending on the army you face. Very useful vs Necrons, who generally try to guass the wagon to death. Having said that, I generally don't take them. I'll also add that boarding planks are useful for MANz in a wagon, but I generally run them in trukks lol.

I agree there's problems with the killkannon but I don't think range is really it. Most ork shooting is short ranged by nature. The problem is definitely the fact that it is a template with a radius of 2.5" and an average scatter of 5".

Maybe let wagons take ammo runts as a vehicle upgrade. Slash upgrade prices by 5-10 pts across the board, fix the deffrolla. Overall I disagree with the premise that they aren't useful, but I do agree they could use tweaking.

 slip wrote:
The battlewagon has it's uses. The face it has low side armour is defined by the fact it will generally be part of a wave of orks that rush down the table whereas something like a landraider is expected to operate solo. Consider the blitzbrigade formation, with it's five wagons. When deployed in a line your opponent cannot draw fire past the AV14 front of the wagon rolling beside it.

Basically this means the wagon must be deployed as part of a phalanx and do require support. They in turn provide your force with a bulkhead.

As for upgrades, I would agree with Semper Mortis's assessment, which exception to the lobba and the grot riggers. For the lobba I say why not? It's a useful weapon at a discount price. For players who believe in only one weapon on the wagon, it may actually be the best choice. (I believe in at least 4x rokkits myself.) The grot riggers can be useful depending on the army you face. Very useful vs Necrons, who generally try to guass the wagon to death. Having said that, I generally don't take them. I'll also add that boarding planks are useful for MANz in a wagon, but I generally run them in trukks lol.

I agree there's problems with the killkannon but I don't think range is really it. Most ork shooting is short ranged by nature. The problem is definitely the fact that it is a template with a radius of 2.5" and an average scatter of 5".

Maybe let wagons take ammo runts as a vehicle upgrade. Slash upgrade prices by 5-10 pts across the board, fix the deffrolla. Overall I disagree with the premise that they aren't useful, but I do agree they could use tweaking.

The problem with that is that your basically saying the only way to field battlewagons is to field them in groups of 5 in the blitz brigade detachment. That means that before you even equip them with guns or give them passengers your spending 550pts. And the only reason they become useful is they can group together and hide their GIGANTIC side armor on one another.

The ork shooting being short ranged isn't to terrible, but it is when in order to get within range you have to expose the biggest weakness of the platform, that being the side/rear armor.

Now of course, unloading an absolute ton of boyz/Nobz from the BW is important and can definitely help out but again that means you are relying on a specific build and not the unit itself. While I agree that some units should have specific builds and require synergy, they shouldn't be utter garbage on their own. And realistically a BW without passengers is utter garbage.

SemperMortis wrote:
[
They aren't versatile at all though. You can spend 20pts to give it 4 rokkitz, 10 more pts to give it a Kannon, you don't want the Kill Kannon because if you fire it everything else is hitting on 6s AND who cares about a 30pt S7 (thanks for the correction) AP3 Large blast? So if you give it a Ram you are now spending 145pts for a short ranged (24in) AV14/12/10 vehicle that can put out 5 S8 shots at BS2 a turn. Since its so short ranged the chances are that your side armor is going to be exposed and compromised. Compare that to a Predator Annihilator which costs 5pts less but has 3 S9AP2 Ranged 48 shots at BS4. Which would you prefer in your army? Short ranged S8 shots that will hit 1/3rd the time or Long ranged S9 shots which will hit 2/3rds the time. AND after all of that keep in mind that Predator annihilators are considered sup-optimal at best.

As far as the rest of the gear...

Deff Rolla: Garbage
Zzap Gun: Garbage
Lobba: Why? you can just take Mek Gunz for 18pts each.
Ard Case: Literally no reason to ever take this
Boarding Plank: 15pts for +2 inches on the charge, not terrible but not really worth taking
Extra Armor: Does anybody ever take this?
Grabbin Klaw: 1/2 chance to immobilize a vehicle within 2in of the BW for a single turn, does not remove an HP. Again, does anyone ever take this?
Grot Riggers: I don't use these and I can't remember anyone ever taking them. Very rarely do my BW's die from HP stripping. Usually someone hits it with AP1-2 and adding in open topped, blows it up.
Kill Kannon: 30pts for a S7 AP3 large blast with 24in range, no thanks.
Red Paint Job: Again nobody takes this
Stikkbomb Chucka: Literally the most useless upgrade available. Any unit actually using a BW already has Stikk bombs.
Wreckin Ball: a S9 AP4 Assault D3 weapon with a HUGE RANGE of 3inches.....If you are close enough to use this stupid thing you were better off paying for the Deff Rolla that doesn't work anymore.

There's no way I'm ever going to be able to sweeten this, so I'll be frank. I think your attitude stinks. The way you write seems to indicate a chronic fear of any sort of flamboyance (I'm sure you'd call it 'wastage'), which is literally the core philosophy of the entire game and its universe.

We have four people at our club who regularly play Orks and I'm fairly certain I've seen all of those upgrades used on a quite regular basis, with the possible exception of the Killkannon. This might seem unthinkable, but these people actually have quite a lot of fun in their games, and sometimes they even win. Of course they're using armies that are, mathematically speaking, less than perfect, but they're playing games, using models they're proud of and learning tactics and strategy along the way.

I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person, and I would rather not cause any offence, but your idea of how to enjoy Warhammer seems utterly twisted to me. I can see no outcome from that kind of philosophy other than conflict, frustration and expense.

Hey spineyguy, us ork players appreciate the sentient but we resent the participation award style condescension. It is perfectly possible to have a fun and even competitive game of warhammer, As a playbase we will have fun when we want to and try to be competitive when we want to, but that divergence is much more noticeable in a faction like the Orks rather than say Space Marines, where you can have your flamboyant cake and eat it too.

In the spirit of good humour, let me say that just cuz you got green friends doesn't mean you can tell greens how to live.

SemperMortis wrote:
Occasionally you will see someone try to be cute and load the BW up with weapons and try and turn it into a weapons platform, they might even go so far as to put Lootas inside to give it the appearance of more firepower. However, fully loaded a BW costs 175pts and has a single S8 AP3 large blast (Ranged 24....) ordinance weapon, 4 Big shootas/rokkitz (which will have to snapfire most of the game) and maybe a Kannon or Zzap gun if they are feeling uppity. All of that is at BS2 and if you use the Kill Kannon its BS1, on an AV14/12/10 platform.

I actually want an ork weapons platform. Something like a bigger, meaner, orky version of a Grot Mega Tank but smaller than the super heavy Ork Kill Tanks.

Right now I think that the game designers intended us to be able to do this with all the guns we can strap onto the battlewagon, but it just kind of falls short of the mark.

I just think it would be fun.

 Spineyguy wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
[
They aren't versatile at all though. You can spend 20pts to give it 4 rokkitz, 10 more pts to give it a Kannon, you don't want the Kill Kannon because if you fire it everything else is hitting on 6s AND who cares about a 30pt S7 (thanks for the correction) AP3 Large blast? So if you give it a Ram you are now spending 145pts for a short ranged (24in) AV14/12/10 vehicle that can put out 5 S8 shots at BS2 a turn. Since its so short ranged the chances are that your side armor is going to be exposed and compromised. Compare that to a Predator Annihilator which costs 5pts less but has 3 S9AP2 Ranged 48 shots at BS4. Which would you prefer in your army? Short ranged S8 shots that will hit 1/3rd the time or Long ranged S9 shots which will hit 2/3rds the time. AND after all of that keep in mind that Predator annihilators are considered sup-optimal at best.

As far as the rest of the gear...

Deff Rolla: Garbage
Zzap Gun: Garbage
Lobba: Why? you can just take Mek Gunz for 18pts each.
Ard Case: Literally no reason to ever take this
Boarding Plank: 15pts for +2 inches on the charge, not terrible but not really worth taking
Extra Armor: Does anybody ever take this?
Grabbin Klaw: 1/2 chance to immobilize a vehicle within 2in of the BW for a single turn, does not remove an HP. Again, does anyone ever take this?
Grot Riggers: I don't use these and I can't remember anyone ever taking them. Very rarely do my BW's die from HP stripping. Usually someone hits it with AP1-2 and adding in open topped, blows it up.
Kill Kannon: 30pts for a S7 AP3 large blast with 24in range, no thanks.
Red Paint Job: Again nobody takes this
Stikkbomb Chucka: Literally the most useless upgrade available. Any unit actually using a BW already has Stikk bombs.
Wreckin Ball: a S9 AP4 Assault D3 weapon with a HUGE RANGE of 3inches.....If you are close enough to use this stupid thing you were better off paying for the Deff Rolla that doesn't work anymore.

There's no way I'm ever going to be able to sweeten this, so I'll be frank. I think your attitude stinks. The way you write seems to indicate a chronic fear of any sort of flamboyance (I'm sure you'd call it 'wastage'), which is literally the core philosophy of the entire game and its universe.

We have four people at our club who regularly play Orks and I'm fairly certain I've seen all of those upgrades used on a quite regular basis, with the possible exception of the Killkannon. This might seem unthinkable, but these people actually have quite a lot of fun in their games, and sometimes they even win. Of course they're using armies that are, mathematically speaking, less than perfect, but they're playing games, using models they're proud of and learning tactics and strategy along the way.

I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person, and I would rather not cause any offence, but your idea of how to enjoy Warhammer seems utterly twisted to me. I can see no outcome from that kind of philosophy other than conflict, frustration and expense.

You sir are in fact lying. NOBODY takes a Stickbomb Chucka, NOBODY. Why? Because all it does is confer stickbombs to your unit in the Battlwagon....Guess what? Every Ork Boy and Nob COMES WITH STICK BOMBS....lmao

And red paint? 5pts to go 1 inch further when you flat out...nobody is going to use that either because its not important at all.

Zzap Gunz? I haven't even seen those fielded since 7th dropped, Theres no point to any of those upgrades, other units/gear do more for less

You can think my attitude stinks, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it, but what I just said above is still very much true. I have seen BWs taken in 3 configurations total, 2 of them aren't good, and the last one is done only because you want to take more then 12 models in a unit (IE A trukk is still better).

Config 1: Transport, Put a ram on it, maybe 2 Big Shootas or Rokkitz and scoot it down the field filled with Boyz. Once it drops off the troops its effectively useless except to grab objectives and to occasionally ram things, which still doesn't do much.

Config 2: Sneak Attack Gun line. Used in Blitz Brigade and all 5 are equipped with Kill Kannonz and Rokkitz, Scoots forward 6, fires off all of its weapons and hopefully does something productive. Not that great but can be surprising to foes who aren't afraid of orky firepower.

Config 3: Static Gun Platform. Stays away from fighting and fires off its big shootas and either a Kannon or a Lobba. You can put Lootas inside to help shield them from getting wiped out but you make a juicy target. This is probably the least useful and productive because its basically a shield for the lootas since its firepower is not that great and could easily be replaced by a unit of 5 lobbas for less points and a lot more durability.

Now im sure there are other configurations but those are the main 3 I have seen, very anecdotal I know. But honestly this thread is about improving a bad unit not complaining about peoples attitudes and being unproductive.

SemperMortis wrote:

 slip wrote:
The battlewagon has it's uses. The face it has low side armour is defined by the fact it will generally be part of a wave of orks that rush down the table whereas something like a landraider is expected to operate solo. Consider the blitzbrigade formation, with it's five wagons. When deployed in a line your opponent cannot draw fire past the AV14 front of the wagon rolling beside it.

Basically this means the wagon must be deployed as part of a phalanx and do require support. They in turn provide your force with a bulkhead.

As for upgrades, I would agree with Semper Mortis's assessment, which exception to the lobba and the grot riggers. For the lobba I say why not? It's a useful weapon at a discount price. For players who believe in only one weapon on the wagon, it may actually be the best choice. (I believe in at least 4x rokkits myself.) The grot riggers can be useful depending on the army you face. Very useful vs Necrons, who generally try to guass the wagon to death. Having said that, I generally don't take them. I'll also add that boarding planks are useful for MANz in a wagon, but I generally run them in trukks lol.

I agree there's problems with the killkannon but I don't think range is really it. Most ork shooting is short ranged by nature. The problem is definitely the fact that it is a template with a radius of 2.5" and an average scatter of 5".

Maybe let wagons take ammo runts as a vehicle upgrade. Slash upgrade prices by 5-10 pts across the board, fix the deffrolla. Overall I disagree with the premise that they aren't useful, but I do agree they could use tweaking.

The problem with that is that your basically saying the only way to field battlewagons is to field them in groups of 5 in the blitz brigade detachment. That means that before you even equip them with guns or give them passengers your spending 550pts. And the only reason they become useful is they can group together and hide their GIGANTIC side armor on one another.

The ork shooting being short ranged isn't to terrible, but it is when in order to get within range you have to expose the biggest weakness of the platform, that being the side/rear armor.

Now of course, unloading an absolute ton of boyz/Nobz from the BW is important and can definitely help out but again that means you are relying on a specific build and not the unit itself. While I agree that some units should have specific builds and require synergy, they shouldn't be utter garbage on their own. And realistically a BW without passengers is utter garbage.

I never said that at all, I gave it out as one example and the same effect can be achieved multiple ways whether flanked by a walker such as the stompa, trukks who with their additional 6" of movement will actually help them keep pace with the angle between side and front armour, additional non blitz brigade battle wagons can be taken for flexibility, Gun wagons, looted wagons, the board edge, and terrain. The only constant is that the front of the battlewagon should always be facing it's most dangerous threat and should basically head on charge it like a bull, whereas a trukk with it's uniform gak av is much more forgiving to path and position.

Please do not consider this to be an exhaustive tactica of the battlewagon nor do I desire to write one to prove this point. I just finished warbikers in the one I'm writing, I still have the rest of the fast attack options to go. I feel like this should be enough to support my point, that they are useful, but require more consideration than the traditional ork disposable vehicle or a SM vehicle designed to operate with minimal support.

Frankly, the fact we are considering the battlewagon without it's transport capabilities is posoning the well and does not accurately reflect on the usefulness of the wagon. You want to compare it to a predator? Fine, but in this comparison we aren't considering any weapons. How useful of a comparison is that? I feel like your totally misread the battlewagons battlefield role and may not have been utilizing it optimally, based on the predator comparasion, the quote above, and you writing off the wagon's use as a firebase, one of it's major, possibly primary use that I haven't even begun to touch on.

There is flaws, no question, but I feel like you've overzealously over condemned.

While the battlewagon definitely has its issues, for an assault oriented army like Orks it certainly has its place since we have something that a lot of other assault units would love to have as an assault transport.

What hinders it, IMO, is the lack of options besides the tried and true reinforced ram and rokkits. The boarding plank is too expensive for what is effectively a one-use charge buff, the stikkbomb chukka as mentioned previously is almost completely redundant, and RPJ no longer gives us the free extra 1" movement.

At its current price, either we need the AV on the sides upped to 13, or for it (like every other Ork vehicle) to have the Ramshackle rule which itself should be changed to being a 4+ or 5+ roll to downgrade pens to glances and glances to nothing.

Giving additional options like grot gunners (BS3) to make a gun platform more feasible would be good and is already modelled on the grot turrets so there's precedent. Furthermore, I find that the kill-kannon, as a sawed off battle cannon, should at least be S8 and 36" for its cost given our poor BS.

The Deffrolla is definitely something they should bring back as something scary given that Genestealer cults stole our thunder with their new "not deff rolla" rockgrinder vehicle. Just make it cause D3 S10 AP2 hits with ignores cover when ramming/tank shocking, with an additional D3 hits when someone opts for death or glory. With pre-measuring being a thing, it makes the opponent responsible for placement of models. Bam, problem solved.

I think the problem with us wanting to have a roving dakka-wagon is that the moment we move, we have to basically snap-fire everything on the vehicle except for one weapon. So either we need a heavy vehicle or (ideally) a fast vehicle upgrade option.

It can move combat speed with no penalty to the unit inside, and even firing the killkannon does no affect the unit inside. They only have to snap shoot if it moves cruising speed. It's only lootas with their heavy weapon type that would be forced to snap fire if the wagon moves at all.

 slip wrote:
It can move combat speed with no penalty to the unit inside, and even firing the killkannon does no affect the unit inside. They only have to snap shoot if it moves cruising speed. It's only lootas with their heavy weapon type that would be forced to snap fire if the wagon moves at all.

Sorry, I wasn't clear about what I said. I meant that for the battlewagon itself (and not the unit inside) to become a gunboat in its own right without further investing into another unit to place inside we basically have to stay still to fire all the weapons at their full potential (assuming you're not using a killkannon), which is obviously not very good given that most of our weapons are 24"-36" range.

The distance to the back board edge from your mid forward deployment is either 36" or 48". You can add +6" for a combat move to the wagon's range, bringing it to 30". You could roll a single lobba with an insane range. Their range is fine enough, they're not really meant to park in the backfield like leman russes are.

 slip wrote:
The distance to the back board edge from your mid forward deployment is either 36" or 48". Their range is fine enough, they're not really mean to park in the back like leman russes are.

True, but having some option for mobility when it comes to redeployment due to terrain blocking LoS and other things would be good, even just as an up-gradable option. Something to give them more oomph compared to vastly cheaper and arguably better defended Mek Gunz we have right now.

xlDuke wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Dude grot riggers are not traps

It is when you've probably got a Mek in there who can repair weapon destroyed, immobilised and hull points as well as save your Warboss or Nob from a challenge. After the unit gets out regaining hull points won't make much difference anyway and before the unit gets out you probably won't have time to even try. It's 10 points better spent on something else IMO.

Considering my Warboss is on a bike? I mean yeah there's a mek on board with my tankbustas, and the longer it stays alive the longer I can find something to ram/shoot at/block los/etc.

I have one with zzap gun (personal decision as the bit was a gift), 4 rokkits, and grot riggers, and ram (okay it's a roller but I agree it's not as good, still if I'm being fluffy that day it's a roller) that carries my tankbustas and one that's lobba, stikk bomb chukka, 4 big shootas, and grot riggers and a ram (same as above), ideally if I had shoota boyz that's what it'd carry, but I make do nicely with a mob of slugga boyz and 2 more big shootas.

In a perfect world I'd have one with a flakka gun...but that's because I'm nuts...and a bit paranoid about aircraft.

 slip wrote:
Hey spineyguy, us ork players appreciate the sentient but we resent the participation award style condescension. It is perfectly possible to have a fun and even competitive game of warhammer, As a playbase we will have fun when we want to and try to be competitive when we want to, but that divergence is much more noticeable in a faction like the Orks rather than say Space Marines, where you can have your flamboyant cake and eat it too.

In the spirit of good humour, let me say that just cuz you got green friends doesn't mean you can tell greens how to live.

Thanks for being civil. I expected to have this descend into gak-flinging.

Personally, I admit that I play a non-competitive game. When I build an army with my Raven Guard it's full of things that would make Frothy-mouthed Fromagiers feel sick, and that's the way I plan to keep it. We've had a bit of a shift toward competitive play recently in our club's league, and I'm really not a fan of where it's taking us. Even in the last two months we've had three big arguments between members due to rules interpretations and now we're once again bringing it back to a more casual style because that kind of high-intensity, 'optimised' play just makes for frustrating games of Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Bringing it back to the original point, I maintain that Battlewagons are slightly overcosted, but are otherwise just fine. If you don't like the model then get converting, and take whatever accessories you damn well want. Yes, even in a competitive meta. If you have a tactical use for a Wreckin' Ball or a Boarding Plank (and they do have their uses) then bugger the cost. Those points were only going to go on more Boyz, anyway, and you'll be the one laughing when your Meganobz make a 10" charge, or when that Wreckin' Ball strips the last wound off a Wraithknight.

The game is crazy and random and weird, and no amount of anal retention is going to change the fact that at the end of the day, you're rolling dice.

I've read a comparison between a las predator and the battlewagon, which is completely unfair. The SM tank serves only one purpose, to shoot at the enemy while the BW is maninly a transport so you should have compared it to the land raider rather than the predator.

You can give your BW 5 s8 weapons, ok, but the vehicle is only bs2 and no one runs it empty as a gun boat, it always has some cargo.

If you want a shooty unit just take something else, if you want a transport AND some cheap shooty options then it's ok to spend some points to upgrade the wagon with some other weapons. But always keeping in mind that the BW is mainly a transport.

The Killkannon isn't that bad, it's overpriced for sure but if it's ok to bring kans with grootzoka, smasha gunz, flash gitz, gorkanauts and big meks with SAG then the killkannon has a room too.

I usually field my wagons with a rokkit and a ram because I want the more number of units I can get and even 15 more points invested for every vehicle are too many IMHO. In a Blitz Brigade taking 4 rokkits instead of one means 75 points more expensive and I prefer using them for other units. But among the possible upgrades for the BW the cheap rokkits are surely the best option.