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Hey Dakkas,

I roamed the net for days, but I only found quite old entries to this topic. What I'm searching for are the "codices" or let's better say rules for DKoK and Elysian Drop Troops.

I read that the current DKoK rules should be in the Imperial Armour: Siege of Vraks "all in one" book* and that there are Elysian Rules in IA8. But are they the current rules? Will they be obsolete with 8th edition? Furthermore: I've had the possibility to look at some old Vraks books and what I saw there is that the Army List is quite the same as what I got, when I transferred the DKoK on IG Codex. E.g. everything the DKoK HQ Squad has (like standard, vox caster, ...), can also be taken in IG. So what is the difference then? I'm not really willing to buy a 70p book for.. erm..,. I don't know what, on the other hand, I'm fearing to loose rules that make the DKoK more special.

That's even truer regarding Elysians: Are there differences to e.g. Scions? Which rules do they get in their Codex and are they Ok to play with 7th Edition? I really would like to play them as real paratroopers, beeing inserted behind enemy lines and acting like some kind of Special Forces elite guys. Is this possible with one of the codices?
Beyond that, there is also talking about the D99 detachment rules, which, as far as I understood, are in another book. Holy gak? Does that mean I would have to buy two of this IA books only to play Elysians as they are "supposed" to be played? Only for a few pages of data out of each?

I'm pretty new to Warhammer and currently planning my first army, and so I'm very confused by this topic. It would be great to get some advice from you.(:

Regards
Naffathun

*on top of that I also read, that the "all in one" has far less fluff about the DKoK than the 3 other books? So I would have to buy the new one for rules and the three others for story. Is that true? Jargh.... That sounds really crazy.

DKoK has 2 Imperial Armour books with lists in them
Siege of Vraks contains your "Siege Company" (I.E Spam Artillery)
Fall of Orpheus contains your faster "Assault Brigade" list where you spam Guardsmen to get the objective

Siege of Vraks was updated to 7th when it became 1 book, Fall of Orpheus was written in 6th (But as DKoK have no psykers etc it doesnt affect them much)

Imperial Armour "The Anphelion Project" Contains rules for the Elysians. The D-99 Detachment is Great as you can give your basic units +1T Etc (and almost all of it has deep strike/is a Valkyrie)

Both have some pretty big differences from the IG codex and Elysians are nothing like scions.

Will 9th invalidate them? Quite possibly. It's also quite possible that shortly after the edition change FW will release them for free in an updated pdf (they've done this before).

Thank you, Commander.

But can't I use the Valkyrie as well with IG? AT least my Codex has them, I'm only not quite sure, wether models who should profit from "Grav Shut Insertion" must have Deep Strike as well. ?
What I'm really hoping for would be a rule that makes the Elysians better Paratroopers than the Scions. Something like a fewer risk of scattering or beeing mobile quicker. I don't opt for building a whole Elysian Army.

Also I found that Anaphelion Project is 5th edition. oO Isn't that a problem?

Edit: We posted parallel, Scot. Could you point out an example, what makes them different? As I said I'm really new and obviously, I got something wrong if they are so different. Perhaps I should stick to IG and wait for 8th and a bit beyond? What would be your advice?

Yes, the Anphelion Project D99 list is fairly old.

Yep, you can use valks in a regular IG army. No, grav chute insertion doesn't require models to have deep strike.

Re Scions vs. Elysians - Scions are a completely one-dimensional army list (scions, command squad, commisar, tauros, valk) and are overpriced. The Elysian army list in IA3-2nd is actually pretty well rounded with a good selection of units. Do remember that you autolose if you have no models on the table at the end of a game turn in 8th so you can't deploy all of your elysians in reserve or onboard flyers.

Re DKoK vs. IG - there are a lot of similarities, especially if you use IA1-2nd to give IG the extra FW units. There are still differences though - for example, the siege list lets DKoK take artillery in the elite slot whereas the IG don't really have anything good in there.

For a new player I would recommend not going with a FW-based army. FW have a nasty habit of not updating these lists leaving players in limbo.

Codex:AM + Montka (or the digital cadian supplement) for the new formations + IA1-2nd to get the FW goodies will let you capture the spirit of a DKoK or Elysian list. (other than the mass deep striking infantry Elysian list that no-one uses).

The flexibility in army building now available thanks to formations and multiple detachments means that a lot of the special builds that used to need a special army list are now possible anyway. (e.g. the IG now have access to an all-artillery formation that they can spam as much as they want)

The Krieg list also has an immunity to LD test from shooting casualties, making some units (weapon teams and artillery units) much better, as the enemy has to actually wipe out the unit rather than put a couple of wounds and forcing LD tests.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Do remember that you autolose if you have no models on the table at the end of a game turn in 8th so you can't deploy all of your elysians in reserve or onboard flyers.

Elysians have a special rule that lets you drop half your Valkyries on turn 1, so you can actually do a full reserve army. In fact, this is the primary reason to take the army in the 7th edition era of "take whatever you want" formations.

Also, the standard Elysian drop troops list is in IA3 (second edition). The D-99 list is a variant "elite" list, with BS 4 everywhere and some variant upgrades/units in exchange for higher point costs and a smaller range of unit choices. They are two separate lists, much like Space Wolves and Dark Angels are both marine lists but are otherwise independent codices. You only need to buy both books if you want to be able to play both armies.

Naffathun wrote:
Thank you, Commander.

But can't I use the Valkyrie as well with IG? AT least my Codex has them, I'm only not quite sure, wether models who should profit from "Grav Shut Insertion" must have Deep Strike as well. ?
What I'm really hoping for would be a rule that makes the Elysians better Paratroopers than the Scions. Something like a fewer risk of scattering or beeing mobile quicker. I don't opt for building a whole Elysian Army.

Also I found that Anaphelion Project is 5th edition. oO Isn't that a problem?

Edit: We posted parallel, Scot. Could you point out an example, what makes them different? As I said I'm really new and obviously, I got something wrong if they are so different. Perhaps I should stick to IG and wait for 8th and a bit beyond? What would be your advice?

The Anphelion Project got updated to it's second edition a couple years ago so it's up to date for 7th edition.

Wow, thank you all a lot! I feel it's becoming clearer (can you say so in English? ) to me.

Scott-S6 wrote:
Codex:AM + Montka (or the digital cadian supplement) for the new formations + IA1-2nd to get the FW goodies will let you capture the spirit of a DKoK or Elysian list. (other than the mass deep striking infantry Elysian list that no-one uses).

But IA1-2nd is not 7th edition, is it? So I would need the "all in one" Book. Are there also Elysians in this?

Imateria wrote:
The Anphelion Project got updated to it's second edition a couple years ago so it's up to date for 7th edition.

Peregrine wrote:
Also, the standard Elysian drop troops list is in IA3 (second edition). The D-99 list is a variant "elite" list, with BS 4 everywhere and some variant upgrades/units in exchange for higher point costs and a smaller range of unit choices. They are two separate lists, much like Space Wolves and Dark Angels are both marine lists but are otherwise independent codices. You only need to buy both books if you want to be able to play both armies.

Now I get it! But this D-99 thing sounds awesome! As I said, I would only want to have a really small group of Elysians playing them as KSK/SAS/… like Special Forces and not establishing a whole Elysian army. So as far as I understood D-99 is in IA4 Anphelion Project and this got updated to 7th in 2nd edition? Brilliant! So at least for Elysians I should know now where to go.

Remains the DKoK.

Bobthehero wrote:The Krieg list also has an immunity to LD test from shooting casualties, making some units (weapon teams and artillery units) much better, as the enemy has to actually wipe out the unit rather than put a couple of wounds and forcing LD tests.

IDEAL (for me whilst collecting) would be : Mix DK with IG Troops (Cadians/Steel Legion/Scions/...) in main forces, on occasion add D-99 as allies. In this case, there is no way to profit from the LD rule, because the main forces have to be from the same codex, right?

So in this case, I would use the IG codex and play the DK as normal Guardsmen. (?) Or, without the Elysians, I could Field normal IG Units and add my few "real" DK Units as allies played with IA rules and vice versa, when the DKoKs are getting more over time. Is this right so far?

And this LD rule, e.g., is in the Vraks books, which I would need in the new "all in one" book edition, as only this is 7th edition conform? ^^ .... hui.

 Peregrine wrote:

Elysians have a special rule that lets you drop half your Valkyries on turn 1, so you can actually do a full reserve army. In fact, this is the primary reason to take the army in the 7th edition era of "take whatever you want" formations.

Which really isn't very useful. If T1 sees you with 1-2 valks on the table then you've just guaranteed that they'll be destroyed. If you're bringing 3-4 on then you've spent too many points on valks.

In this edition you really need to be deploying a small fire base, probably with a defense line and a comms relay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naffathun wrote:

But IA1-2nd is not 7th edition, is it? So I would need the "all in one" Book. Are there also Elysians in this?

If a book hasn't been replaced by a new edition of itself or become so out of date that it's rules don't function then it's still current. IA1 and vraks don't contain the same things.

There is no elysian list in either but regular IG plus Forgeworld aircraft, drop sentinels, etc. can be a decent approximation of Elysians.

Currently Forge World aren't selling Imperial Armour Volume 1 Second Edition, so no need to worry about that.
That book contains (6th edition) stats for all the Imperial Guard ground vehicles, including the Drop Sentinels and Tauros assault vehicles used by the Elysians (but in the context of IA vol 1 2nd ed, they're available as FA options for Codex: Imperial Guard). I don't think it contains rules for the Valkyrie Sky Talon, Thunderbolt Fighter and Vulture Gunship. those were in Imperial Armour Aeronautica which has been out of print for even longer.

As far as currently available army lists for Imperial Guard variants go, you've got, in publication order:

IA vol 3 2nd edition - Elysian Drop troops army list (written for 6th edition; it references Codex: Imperial Guard, not Astra Militarum)
IA vol 12: Death Korps of Krieg Assault Brigade
IA Siege of Vraks: Death Korps of Krieg Siege Regiment
IA Anphelion Project: Elysian Detachment D-99 and Inquisitor Solomon Lok

As far as I'm aware, all those army lists are written for sixth edition - they reference the last Codex: Imperial Guard and the digital-only Codex: Inquisition. The Vraks and Anphelion books will also reference the 6th edition Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Space Marines.

Note that the two Elysian army lists and the two Krieg lists are not replacements for each other - they both do different things (D-99 is primarily designed for fighting Tyranids, for example).