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Hi,

I am just getting back into 40K after an approximately 6 year break and everything is different!!!!! Aaarrrggghh.

Anyway, I think I have just about gotten my head around everything and have an idea of an army I would like to collect (Chaos Space Marines) and was looking for some advice on the following list. Specifically,

1) Is it even legal (I think it is but…)
2) Is it reasonably competitive? Not looking for tier ridiculous, just something that can hold its own with some cool models. Not played a game under the latest edition so want to make sure it can compete in multiple scenarios.
3) Any changes you would suggest?

I am in the lucky position that I have not started to buy models yet, so can pretty much change as people suggest.

So, without further ado:

Khorne Daemonkin CAD

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage

8 x Bloodletters

8 x Bloodletters

Gorepack
- 15 Flesh Hounds
- 3 Chaos Bikers, 2 Meltaguns
- 3 Chaos Bikers, 2 Meltaguns

Allied Detachment

Cyclopia Cabal
- Sorcerer, Mastery Level 3, Chaos Bike, Veterans of the Long War
- Sorcerer, Mastery Level 3, Chaos Bike, Veterans of the Long War
- Sorcerer, Mastery Level 3, Chaos Bike, Veterans of the Long War, Mark of Slaanesh

10 Chaos Cultists, Heavy Stubber, 9 Autoguns

Allied Detachment

Renegade Knight, Thermal Cannon

This leaves 129 points in which I can fit either
- Skull Cannon
- 5 Raptors with 2 Meltaguns
- 3 Terminators with 3 Combi Meltas, 2 Bloodreapers for the Bloodletters
Not sure which is best.

It feels ok; I have three juicy targets to split my opponent’s attention, fairly strong psychic potential, some long range firepower, deep strike capability and a lot of speed.

Any thoughts?

This looks very solid sir I would add more flesh hounds with the remaining points. The gorepack is very very good you can split it into more units remember you can have up to 4 units of flesh hounds in 1 gore pack. So why not make multiple units of lets say 7 or sacred number 8?

I also recently started daemonkin except that I've already made my purchases (with some new stuff coming in the mail soon 2nd bloodthrister, maulerfiends and more flesh hounds!)

take a look at my thread for some examples of what I assume will work very well after having played a few games with no losses.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/719797.page

I'm looking forward to adding Be'lakor (Chaos Undivided) whom I think is also a good idea for you to consider instaed of the cyclopean cabal of sorcerers and not to mention fluffier (Khorne hates Slaneesh!)

Thanks!

The reason I have gone with the big 15 hound pack is that it is somewhere i can hide my Sorcerers. 30 toughness 4 wounds seems like a good meat shield for them and it also allows them to scout (I think). If I start breaking it down it makes the sorcerers more vulnerable.

Also, I know Khorne hates Slaanesh in the fluff, but also hates pskers and I have three of them so thought I may as well go full hog and put a slaanesh one in as their powers seem strong to buff the big hound unit. Also looking to roll up Invisibility on one Sorc for all the goodness that brings.

The choice of additional units I could take really comes down to whether I want an ignored cover pie plate or a deep striking tank killer unit.

The cyclopea cabal is a standalone formation, not part of an allied detachment. So those cultists aren't needed.

The list looks good tho. I would probably max out the hounds , or add another Bloodthirster for redundancy. The mark of slaanesh is very curious??

I think I prefer the khorne daemon knight to the renegade knight for daemonkin.

Will the mark of Slaanesh be allowed in the Daemon khorne unit?

 rawne2510 wrote:
Will the mark of Slaanesh be allowed in the Daemon khorne unit?

There aren't any competing marks in the unit

So having different marks of chaos and daemons of chaos don´t matter???

 rawne2510 wrote:
So having different marks of chaos and daemons of chaos don´t matter???

The rules don't say that it matters, so it doesn't matter

It only matters if they were part of the chaos daemons codex.

One thing to note is that the sorcerers CAN be undivided, no mark needed specially if you plan on rolling for invisibility I would recommend no marks as you wont be required to roll on a chaos god table.

Scout is not granted to the sorcerers sadly so that plan is foiled but if you leave one lagging behind you can move the sorcerers into coherency in the movement phase but you will be slowing down the hounds a bit and speed is one of their biggest selling points.

You are only as fast as your slowest model.

Well then dropping the cultists and the spare points you get 1 extra sorcerer. Give him tzeentch mark to get +1 Inv and use as you tanking character as you don´t have one for challenges.

We sure scout isn't granted to the sorcerors?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
We sure scout isn't granted to the sorcerors?

Scout is conferred to dedicated transports not to ICs joining the unit. Scout and Infiltrate work very similarly.

Edit: Taking a second look at the rule, it seems that even though they are worded similarly, only the infiltrate special rule specifically gets denied for ICs. Which is interesting, I guess I auto assumed it applied to scouting aswell with ICs and haven't taken advantage of this after seeing the infiltrate ruling. Will def have to take a long hard look at this and possibly abuse it myself.

So the Mark of Slaanesh is quite contentious it seems, but the real aim there is the 1 in 3 chance of rolling up Hysterical Frenzy which, together with rolling on the Biomancy table gives me a good shot at a pretty tasty hound unit.

As to Sorcerers being undivided, yes two of the three are undivided.

As to the Cabal being a standalone formation - hadn't realised, thanks. Dropping the cultists only grants me 64 points back, though - is it not worth including them anyways for more bodies on the table? It may just be my previous edition head talking where only troops could score objectives but. Otherwise I could play 19 hounds, but seems a little unwieldy.

Had anyone got any thoughts about the leftover 129 points and my suggested inclusions?

 rawne2510 wrote:
Well then dropping the cultists and the spare points you get 1 extra sorcerer. Give him tzeentch mark to get +1 Inv and use as you tanking character as you don´t have one for challenges.

This does seem like an interesting solution to the point problem - I do like sorcerers....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am also getting the vibe that a lot of the suggestions so far are fairly minor tweaks to the list and that the list in general is quite solid which is encouraging having not been around for a while! Trust me to write a list which needs 4 codex's/expansions as well as the rulebook though....

And so the army building begins! I have decided to go with the following as my first port of call:

Combined Arms Detachment

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage (1) - 275pts
1 Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage

Herald (1) - 100pts
1 Herald: Hellblade,Juggernaut of Khorne

Bloodletters (8) - 80pts
8 Bloodletter

Bloodletters (8) - 80pts
8 Bloodletter

Chaos Cultists (8) - 63pts
1 Cultist Champion: Autopistol
1 Chaos Cultist: Heavy stubber
6 Chaos Cultist: Autopistol

Chaos Knight Errant (1) - 420pts
1 Chaos Knight Errant

Gorepack

Flesh Hounds (15) - 240pts
15 Flesh Hound

Chaos Bikers (3) - 101pts
1 Chaos Biker Champion: Close combat weapon,Bolt pistol,Twin-linked boltgun,Melta bombs
2 Chaos Biker: Meltagun,Twin-linked boltgun,Bolt pistol

Chaos Bikers (3) - 101pts
1 Chaos Biker Champion: Close combat weapon,Bolt pistol,Twin-linked boltgun,Melta bombs
2 Chaos Biker: Meltagun,Twin-linked boltgun,Bolt pistol

Cyclopia Cabal

Sorcerer (1) - 130pts
1 Sorcerer: Frag and krak grenades,Force weapon,Bolt pistol,Chaos bike,Psyker (Mastery Level 3),Veterans of the Long War

Sorcerer (1) - 130pts
1 Sorcerer: Frag and krak grenades,Force weapon,Bolt pistol,Chaos bike,Psyker (Mastery Level 3),Veterans of the Long War

Sorcerer (1) - 130pts
1 Sorcerer: Frag and krak grenades,Force weapon,Bolt pistol,Chaos bike,Psyker (Mastery Level 3),Veterans of the Long War

Lets see how it goes.....

a few points:

- First - page 30 of the chaos space marines codex is clear that a character with a mark of chaos cannot join another unit with a different mark of chaos so a slaanesh sorcerer could not join the fleshhounds.... although the fleshhounds don't really have a mark of khorne as much as being demons of khorne... Perhaps the FAQ's clarify this. it would clearly go against the spirit of the rule but perhaps not against rule as written.

-Second - I really love the knights but they take away some of the power of the khorne deamonkin codex by lacking the "Blood for the blood god" rule, its a very killy unit which will negate you a lot of blood tithe points, sorcerers also have a bit of this effect but being as they are gonna be part of the fleshhound units and being much less killy, they wont lose you as many blood tithe.

- That fleshhound unit is unwieldly huge, fleshhounds have a big base, 15 fleshhounds plus 3 biker sorcerers and a Juggerherald is gonna be difficult to maneuver arround, even with their speed. I would recommend splitting in 2 or 3 units. maybe by removing the cultists allowing you 4 more fleshhounds to beef up to units of 6-7.

- I believe that veteran of the long war is free when you take any of the traitor legions. The Sorcerers cannot be khorne deaminkin so you can take the formation as a traitor legion, I could recommend black legion (for general hatred) or Night lords (for stealth)


anyways food for thought, your list seems solid either way.

To be more specific, the cyclopea cabal Have to be Black Legion. You shouldn't ever have to pay the VOTLW tax for them. And for sure remember the eternal hatred

Judging by the points cost, that's actually a chaos knight with the daemon of khorne upgrade, which comes with BFTBG in a KDK detachment. Hurrah

I like the list. The only thing that looks like it's missing is the locus of wrath on the Herald but you can't have everything.

I've run a similar list at my last tournament. I had the 3 sorcerers, a Chaos Knight, and a Gorepack with a big unit of hounds to hide the sorcerers in. The main differences were: I ran a tooled-up Chaos Lord instead of a Herald, I didn't have a D-thirster, and I had a Heldrake. The Chaos Lord can handle almost any challenge when properly equipped, and the Heldrake is a good counter to MEQ or bikes of any variety. I've found the Bloodthirster to be a bullseye with wings far too often, so I'm pretty much not going to use him in tournaments despite how cool the model is. Of course, my meta is really tough, so maybe you can get more mileage out of him.

For the sorcerers, you are definitely better off going unmarked. This way you can get 3 powers from each of 3 different disciplines (more if you take more than 3 sorcerers!), plus the primaris. In my tournament, I went with Sinistrum, Telepathy, and Biomancy, but you could probably use Sanctic Daemonology instead of one of those, although it's risky. I also took Spell Familiars on each wizard; those rerolls can be clutch if you really need a power to go off.

how do you get a blood for the blood god knight? I know of the kytan deamon engine but thats 525pts not 420pts.

tjhe forgeworld rules for Chaos knight errant allow for a 420pts khorne marked knight but the rules dont mention blood for the blood god anywhere. what am I missing here?

 fartherthanfar wrote:
how do you get a blood for the blood god knight? I know of the kytan deamon engine but thats 525pts not 420pts.

the forgeworld rules for Chaos knight errant allow for a 420pts khorne marked knight but the rules dont mention blood for the blood god anywhere. what am I missing here?

The rules do tell you it has BftBG when taken in KDK

 fartherthanfar wrote:
a few points:

- First - page 30 of the chaos space marines codex is clear that a character with a mark of chaos cannot join another unit with a different mark of chaos so a slaanesh sorcerer could not join the fleshhounds.... although the fleshhounds don't really have a mark of khorne as much as being demons of khorne... Perhaps the FAQ's clarify this. it would clearly go against the spirit of the rule but perhaps not against rule as written.

-Second - I really love the knights but they take away some of the power of the khorne deamonkin codex by lacking the "Blood for the blood god" rule, its a very killy unit which will negate you a lot of blood tithe points, sorcerers also have a bit of this effect but being as they are gonna be part of the fleshhound units and being much less killy, they wont lose you as many blood tithe.

- That fleshhound unit is unwieldly huge, fleshhounds have a big base, 15 fleshhounds plus 3 biker sorcerers and a Juggerherald is gonna be difficult to maneuver arround, even with their speed. I would recommend splitting in 2 or 3 units. maybe by removing the cultists allowing you 4 more fleshhounds to beef up to units of 6-7.

- I believe that veteran of the long war is free when you take any of the traitor legions. The Sorcerers cannot be khorne deaminkin so you can take the formation as a traitor legion, I could recommend black legion (for general hatred) or Night lords (for stealth)


anyways food for thought, your list seems solid either way.

Thanks for the comments!

1) I am aware of this, but as far as I can see Flesh hounds have no mark so it shouldn't be a problem. Unfluffy yes. My latest list doesn't have the mark anyways.

2) The included knight is using the forge world Chaos Knight rules (hence the elevated cost). This knight does have BftBG and a Mark of Khorne so the list is good in that regard.

3) The flesh hound unit is large yes, but the aim is to just be a delivery system for the sorcerers. I am concerned about them being unwieldy, but 30 T4 wounds with a 5+ invulnerable just feels great.

4) I know Veterans of the Long War is free. The army builder I use still includes it in the profile, but at 0 points.

Thanks again for the comments

Captyn_Bob wrote:

I like the list. The only thing that looks like it's missing is the locus of wrath on the Herald but you can't have everything.

I agree I would really like to include one, but not sure what to drop. Thanks for the positive feedback though!

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I've run a similar list at my last tournament. I had the 3 sorcerers, a Chaos Knight, and a Gorepack with a big unit of hounds to hide the sorcerers in. The main differences were: I ran a tooled-up Chaos Lord instead of a Herald, I didn't have a D-thirster, and I had a Heldrake. The Chaos Lord can handle almost any challenge when properly equipped, and the Heldrake is a good counter to MEQ or bikes of any variety. I've found the Bloodthirster to be a bullseye with wings far too often, so I'm pretty much not going to use him in tournaments despite how cool the model is. Of course, my meta is really tough, so maybe you can get more mileage out of him.

For the sorcerers, you are definitely better off going unmarked. This way you can get 3 powers from each of 3 different disciplines (more if you take more than 3 sorcerers!), plus the primaris. In my tournament, I went with Sinistrum, Telepathy, and Biomancy, but you could probably use Sanctic Daemonology instead of one of those, although it's risky. I also took Spell Familiars on each wizard; those rerolls can be clutch if you really need a power to go off.

This may be my naivity here, but does the Gorepack count as a standalone formation, and so does not use up my fast attack choices in my CAD? I was very tempted by a lord over the Bloodthirster, but the model is so amazing! Also gives another target which together with the Knight and Flesh Hound unit I hope will split my opponents attention. Not sure how well it will work though.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
how do you get a blood for the blood god knight? I know of the kytan deamon engine but thats 525pts not 420pts.

tjhe forgeworld rules for Chaos knight errant allow for a 420pts khorne marked knight but the rules dont mention blood for the blood god anywhere. what am I missing here?

The forgeworld rules say the following:

Using Chaos Knights in your army in games of Warhammer 40,000
A Chaos Knight Paladin or a Chaos Knight Errant may be taken in Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons armies as a Lords of
War choice. It has the same Faction as the army it is taken in, and may not be taken in any other army. A Chaos Knight dedicated to Khorne
may be taken in a Codex: Khorne Daemonkin army, and in this case has the Blood for the Blood God! special rule.

oh awesome, thats great, thanks for the clarification guys

Phoenix1988 wrote:
This may be my naivity here, but does the Gorepack count as a standalone formation, and so does not use up my fast attack choices in my CAD? I was very tempted by a lord over the Bloodthirster, but the model is so amazing! Also gives another target which together with the Knight and Flesh Hound unit I hope will split my opponents attention. Not sure how well it will work though.

The Gorepack does not count against the FA choices in a CAD. A formation is a separate detachment and so has its own Force Org requirements (in the case of the Gorepack, 2-4 bike units and 1-4 hound units). You could also include 3 FA choices in your CAD if you wanted to.

You are right about the Bloodthirster being an amazing model! It's a pity I haven't had more success with mine, but it sure was fun to paint! It is good to add some target saturation, so by all means if you want to use the Thirster and you have the model you should do so, but be prepared to take some fire as no one wants that thing anywhere near the valuable stuff in their army (i.e. stuff that the D-thirster is meant to kill, like Knights).