Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Omniscient oracles

Fateweaver 300pts
Lord of Change - ML3, lesser reward, impossible robe 290pts

Daemon CAD

Tzerald on disc with ML3 + grimoire of true names 155pts (goes with screamers for mini screamer-star)

11 blue horrors 55pts
11 blue horrors 55pts
11 blue horrors 55pts
11 blue horrors 55pts
11 blue horrors 55pts
10 brimstones 30pts

6 screamers 150pts

Heralds anarchic (each goes with a blue horror unit)

Tzerald with ML3 and paradox 120pts
Tzerald 45pts
Tzerald 45pts
Tzerald 45pts
Tzerald 45pts

Everyone rolls on malefic. Basically fateweaver, lord of change and mini screamer-star push up the board and summon units all over the enemy army. Cursed earth is also put down wherever I can get it for potential 2++ re-rollable saves.

The plan is to summon in whatever's tactical + situational to counter the enemy. Fatey would most likely use 'boon of flame' every turn for a burning chariot. The tzeralds will try and become bloodthirsters, make more tzeralds, and summon in daemonettes/screamers/flamers/flesh hounds as appropriate. If I have any spare charge from the starting 33 warp-charge, I might make use of some of fateweaver's mind-bullets.

Would this fare well? I can imagine it'd be a little slow to get going compared with most lists, as not much damage would be done early on.

Nod bad. The LoC really needs 2 greater rewards though. Getting FNP 4+ can be the difference between taking a wound or not. The very first time I took a wound while using the Robes, I failed my LD9 test. LoC gone!
The LoC is also the most reliable way to cause damage in this list as he's the only true melee capable unit, so he needs as much protection as you can muster.

I would drop the Brimstones and 1 Blue horror for the points (plus you Grimoire Herald is only 150, not 155, so there's another 5pts)
Otherwise I think the list is solid.

I would also clarify with your group if Blue & Brimstones can actually roll Malefic powers. RAI is a firm No, but RAW is a different story.

Cheers for the advice - yeah I wasn't planning on rolling the blues/brims on malefic. I'd mainly just use them for the odd flickering fire and perhaps a chariot or two.

Yeah I'd be happy to trade the brims for greater rewards - they were only really there to fill out the last few points.

And cheers for the clarification about the herald! I'd miscounted...

Good luck!

Get a Disc for the other level 3 with Paradox or he will not live long. Everyone will concentrate on him

How would a disc make him more survivable? Would it not make more sense to buff his unit with more models?

 Galef wrote:
Nod bad. The LoC really needs 2 greater rewards though. Getting FNP 4+ can be the difference between taking a wound or not. The very first time I took a wound while using the Robes, I failed my LD9 test. LoC gone!
The LoC is also the most reliable way to cause damage in this list as he's the only true melee capable unit, so he needs as much protection as you can muster.

I would drop the Brimstones and 1 Blue horror for the points (plus you Grimoire Herald is only 150, not 155, so there's another 5pts)
Otherwise I think the list is solid.

I would also clarify with your group if Blue & Brimstones can actually roll Malefic powers. RAI is a firm No, but RAW is a different story.

How is the RAW for blues and brimstone open to allowing Maelific. They don´t have the option on their dataslate?

Cos the brb says that things That don't explicitly not have it, have it.
Ofc for post 7th releases not listing the power is the same as explicitly saying they don't have it, but it's never been properly clarified.
(It's been implicitly clarified in the pink horrors faq)

Hmmm.

I would generally look to slap someone who tried to say that they could since you are told which disciplines you can use in the dataslates. The only reason there was ever a question for Pink horrors was because their codex used to say they could when the new cards came out mid codex update. That isn´t in their codex anymore.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Hmmm.

I would generally look to slap someone who tried to say that they could since you are told which disciplines you can use in the dataslates. The only reason there was ever a question for Pink horrors was because their codex used to say they could when the new cards came out mid codex update. That isn´t in their codex anymore.

Most Beast units do not have Fleet or Move through cover on their datasheet, yet no one gets "slpped in the face" for using those rules because the BRB grants the rule for all Beasts.
It is the same principle for Psykers having access to Malefic. All Psykers (except Nids & GKs) are granted access to Malefic by the BRB. Absence of the rule on a model's datasheet does not take this away.
Having said this, I agree that the RAI are pretty clear at this point that GW wants to only let Psykers use the disciplines given on their datasheets, but sadly they have dropped the ball RAW.
They had to FAQ/Errata Pink Horrors to not be allowed Malefic, as otherwise you would be able to take it. They forgot to include ALL Horrors.

-

That´s because it is a rule given too all beast units by their unit type.


They FAQ´d the pink horrors (It is nothing like and errata) because prior to magnus book all daemons were given permission to use maelific as their codex came out before Maelific was even in the game. They didn´t forget all horrors because no body asked the question to include them as they haven´t been given permission to use because it wasn´t on their dataslate. They have never been given permission to use it. So why would you need to ask if they could.

 rawne2510 wrote:
That´s because it is a rule given too all beast units by their unit type.


They FAQ´d the pink horrors (It is nothing like and errata) because prior to magnus book all daemons were given permission to use maelific as their codex came out before Maelific was even in the game. They didn´t forget all horrors because no body asked the question to include them as they haven´t been given permission to use because it wasn´t on their dataslate. They have never been given permission to use it. So why would you need to ask if they could.

I suggest you check out the section in the BRB about the Psychic phase, specifically the pages about Daemonology (I don't have my BRB handy to reference the actual page numbers) but it specifically says all units with the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psyker rule can generate powers from Sanctic or Malefic.
This is because (as you mentioned) when 7th ed came out, exactly ZERO units had either listed on their datasheet. So GW gave blanket access to ALL Psykers. 2+ years later, we now have updated unit entries that include Daemonology, yet the BRB still says ALL Psykers can access it. This still has not been addressed in an FAQ.

HIWPI: Horrors of any color cannot access Malefic Daemonology. But that isn't Rules as Written, Errata'd or FAQ'd.

-

RAW horrors do not get malefic.

Q: Do the new Pink Horrors get Malefic psychic powers?
A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/03/wrath-of-magnus-faq/

Pink horrors and blue horrors have access to the same powers, ergo blue do not have access to malefic.

This army would rely heavily on going first.

Going first is always nice but the amount of crippling you could suffer against competitive armies by going second with this summoning list is quite large. Imagine some d blasts, or scatter lasers, or skyhammer removing 2-4 of your blue horror + herald units before you get to go.

Summoning, and possession are powerful but require you to roll 3+ successes. Meaning you want to throw 5-6 dice at each try. Losing 4- 12 psychic dice before you go is not pretty for this kind of list, which is why most summoning lists which are competitive rely on units buried in a large star and or flying to make it hard to hit them gating to wound rolls behind snap firing most likely. Having a bunch of units which you rely on to be your psychic power battery which are inherently weak then putting other weak psyker in them is not doing you any favors.

If you go first your golden, if you don't and your actually playing in a competitive series of games, like a tournament, you will have a hard time, more than many armies would have by going second.

Each blue horror unit you lose with herald is going from 3 WC to 1 WC and loss of something that might have malefic powers.

 Galef wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
That´s because it is a rule given too all beast units by their unit type.


They FAQ´d the pink horrors (It is nothing like and errata) because prior to magnus book all daemons were given permission to use maelific as their codex came out before Maelific was even in the game. They didn´t forget all horrors because no body asked the question to include them as they haven´t been given permission to use because it wasn´t on their dataslate. They have never been given permission to use it. So why would you need to ask if they could.

I suggest you check out the section in the BRB about the Psychic phase, specifically the pages about Daemonology (I don't have my BRB handy to reference the actual page numbers) but it specifically says all units with the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psyker rule can generate powers from Sanctic or Malefic.
This is because (as you mentioned) when 7th ed came out, exactly ZERO units had either listed on their datasheet. So GW gave blanket access to ALL Psykers. 2+ years later, we now have updated unit entries that include Daemonology, yet the BRB still says ALL Psykers can access it. This still has not been addressed in an FAQ.

HIWPI: Horrors of any color cannot access Malefic Daemonology. But that isn't Rules as Written, Errata'd or FAQ'd.

-

That was to cover all codexes that were out at the time. Every new codex states what spell discipline each psyker can draw from. Codex > BRB rules.

The reason they can´t FAQ/errata it is because there are still codecies that haven´t been updated since 7th Ed dropped.

You statement would mean that any army/data slate that doesn´t specifically say they can´t use maelific can use maelific then.

Thanks for the feedback blaktoof! I can see where you're coming from - could be very painful if half the army is dead after turn 1

Hopefully they'd have a bit of a choice between taking out the horrors and the more immediately threatening units - fatey, the LOC and the screamers.

 rawne2510 wrote:

You statement would mean that any army/data slate that doesn´t specifically say they can´t use maelific can use maelific then.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
Look at this from a new player's point of view. If you have no idea what books came out in which order and you pick up the BRB, Daemon codex, WoM and all the FAQs, there is exactly zero reason to think that Blues & Brims cannot access Malefic. Only Pinks have been denied
The "but it's only in there for older books" is a lame rationale because it assumes the player has not only been playing from previous editions, but that current editions acknowledge the existence of older editions. The rule set in its entirety must be viewed as complete and applicable to all future releases.

BRB grants the access, in order for the Codex to trump this access, somewhere the access must be denied. Absence is not denial, otherwise Beast units would not have Fleet since that rule is granted in the rulebook, yet absent in the codex.

I am not saying Blues & Brims should have access to Malefic, all I am saying is that their access to it has yet to be 'offically' denied by any source. I am a big advocate for playing the game with the intent of the rules in mind, such as in this case not allowing Blues and Brims Malefic. But from a pure RAW standpoint, there are NO rules written that take away the BRB's inherent access for Blues & Brims to roll Malefic.
If someone rolled up against me with a Daemon army and started rolling his Blue Horror's powers on Malefic, I could argue RAI all day, but if they insisted, I would have no choice since they are playing RAW.

That darn FAQ needs to have just said "Horrors" not "Pink Horrors"

-