Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi, I've just painted a bunch of daemons and am wondering how I can best summon them. Ideally I want to be able to create a whole load of units as quickly as possible while cackling maniacally. The daemons I have (mostly painted now) are: 5 heralds of tzeentch (one on disc), 40 daemonettes (possessed-looking cadians), 3 screamers, 3 flamers, burning chariot, 15 flesh hounds, 11 pink horrors, 23 blue horros, 20 brimstones, two bloodthirsters and a lord of change.

I usually play imperial guard, but could use the models for renegades, genestealer cult or chaos cultists too. Thoughts I had include...

Tzeentch heralds in blue horror units (use one for the paradox) - could deepstrike a unit or two of these to summon in backfield when allied to IG or R+H
Imperial guard psykana division (for 2+ harnessing and ignoring perils)
Librarius conclave in a conscript squad
Chaos sorcerors with spell familiars (could use either word bearers for 3+ summoning, black legion cyclopia cabal or death guard for fearless T5 FNP sorcs)
Get a few more screamers and fateweaver for a screamer-star to summon in the backfield (plus fateweaver could make some chariots).

Seems you need to have warp charge batteries (e.g. heralds anarchic or blue horrors) combined with boosted casters (e.g. psykana division, paradox, sorcerors with familiars) to get the best bang for your buck. Would be interested to hear what other people use. I'd be interested in taking this to tournaments, but not too bothered if I didn't place highly

I pretty much just use which ever Daemon Psyker I roll Malefic on (which is all of them but Horrors), so Disc Heralds, LoCs, etc. The only times I do not roll on Malefic is with my Tetrad DPs as they need buffs from Biomancy or Telepathy.

I've never done a summon heavy list, though. Usually I just have dice left over for 1 incursion and/or Sacrifice. With which I prefer Plague Drones and Disc Heralds.

-

The Wrath of Magnus book has a formation of 3-9 heralds of Tzeentch. Each Herald in the formation generates an extra D3 Warp dice. With your 5 Heralds you could field all 5 at level 3 for 495 pts. This would give you 15 plus 5D3 warp charge dice, and a total of 10 rolls on the Malicant table.

Ravingbantha wrote:
The Wrath of Magnus book has a formation of 3-9 heralds of Tzeentch. Each Herald in the formation generates an extra D3 Warp dice. With your 5 Heralds you could field all 5 at level 3 for 495 pts. This would give you 15 plus 5D3 warp charge dice, and a total of 10 rolls on the Malicant table.

No they don't gerenate an extra d3 warp charges, it just 1. Each herald in the formation makes 1 extra warp charge

I've played Chaos, Space Marines, Daemons and IG. From my experience, no one can trump the IG psykana division. For less than 300pts, you can get 3 psyker squads, 1 primarias, and a couple (ideally 3) commisars. Add two extra pyskers to the squads and conjure on a 2+.

I told my opponent what I was doing as its super cheesy (though has its drawbacks). On turn four, I had summoned over 70 deamons, one greater deamon and was swamping the board. Hell, I was intentionally trying to have them mishap on the deep strike so they would purposefully go into ongoing reserve so I could deep strike them away from the psyker squads.

Expect the commisars to kill one psyker a turn. (Thus buying the extra 2 per squad) this gives you a bigger buffer, and more importantly at least two more turns before the commisars executions, start removing your extra warp charge perks for being close to the primaris.

Its loads of fun, and your opponent might not even hate it, as my friend gleefully loved to shoot up all the fresh kill points being summoned.

I'd invest in some more disc heralds and Screamers firstly.

Barring that if you have IG I'd run Renegades and Heritics as your primary and bring an ass ton of big guns.

I'd then bring the heralds Archanic for your heralds and bonus warp charge.
Make sure one herald has the paradox - personally I'd make that the disc

Finally I'd bring an allied detachment with the Lord of Change, 11 blues and your Screamers to bodyguard the disc herald.

With all that in place your heralds on foot will stay in the backfield,generate work charge and turn in to greater daemons.
Your disc herald and lord of change can fiction as your objective grabbers dropping units where needed.
And the renegade guns can keep your opponent scared while you win the game

Thanks for all the ideas guys - I'm going to be going to an ITC tournament sometime soon that'll allow renegades with allied daemons, so that should be fun! Was planning on running mainly renegades with around four units of 11 blue horrors, each with a 'herald anarchic' in them. Sounded pretty durable with decent summoning output to me. I might use the tzeentch-curion detachment from wrath of magnus to get around the 3-detachment limit. The only real tax is the blue scribes, and they have a 4/6 chance at manifesting something useful from malefic (cursed earth, sacrifice, possession or incursion) while potentially generating a little extra warp charge.

Do you actually reckon a screamer star is worth it if you're not running grimoire and fateweaver? At that point it's going to be a decent size of your army and I don't have the models for it yet...

Plague drones would be a valuable asset to summon - the only thing holding me back is the cost money-wise, even with the possibility of the start-collecting nurgle box

I would really like to try the psykana division too. My main trouble is how they'd combine with the rest of an army. Could use astra militarum, but I imagine you'd be having a lot of one-eye-open checks. Could also use renegades/daemons, but then the 12 inch deployment rule could be extremely annoying. I imagine it'd be hard to keep the psykanas safe. I guess could just line them up against a board side-edge and fill the rest of the deployment zone with renegades, zombies, artillery and blue horror/tzerald warp batteries?

What sorts IG tanks do you have available to you in your collection?

Most tourneys these days don't require GW only models, and daemons can look like literally anything. If plague drones and screamer stars being too expensive is holding you back try third party stuff. Reaper Bones has a ton of big gribbly monsters you could plop a plaguebearer on top of for a plague drone, or flying toothy things you could use as screamers.

No russes.

5 griffons, 2 wyverns, 2 hydras that can also be basilisks and 2 chimeras. Mainly focused on the cheap R+H artillery

Found this just in case anyone is interested!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuD5W1ol-gc&index=1&list=PLiBdhjhtCRwfKGZVFLNhyE4sKWpFxVq9k

Most in depth guide to summoning I've ever seen. This guy likes to use sacrifice a lot and spam out heralds. I guess it makes sense in non-kill point games as it's only one warp charge.

One thing I've been wondering about is how you'd counter imperial knights with summoned units? Just got for as many bloodthirsters as possible? Screamers just don't seem that strong, even with armourbane.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Found this just in case anyone is interested!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuD5W1ol-gc&index=1&list=PLiBdhjhtCRwfKGZVFLNhyE4sKWpFxVq9k

Most in depth guide to summoning I've ever seen. This guy likes to use sacrifice a lot and spam out heralds. I guess it makes sense in non-kill point games as it's only one warp charge.

One thing I've been wondering about is how you'd counter imperial knights with summoned units? Just got for as many bloodthirsters as possible? Screamers just don't seem that strong, even with armourbane.

Plaguebearers or screen them with demonettes

Oh wow, just re-read the plague sword entry. Didn't realise that plague swords auto-glance on a six... This may be expensive news for my wallet as nurgle daemons are the one type I DON'T have haha

Thanks though!

Take the 9x9pt Blue Scribes and hide them somewhere nice while getting a free malefic roll each turn! Roll a die, get that spell. Do it towards the end, because your opponent can still counter it. But it auto-casts. And turning a double-digit pointed herald into a full blown LoC or BT will seriously turn your opponent into a mouth frothing loonie!

Quick doubt.

According to the BRB everyone unless otherwise stated gets access to daemology thought with perils on any double.

Do eldar farseers still get access to summon? Even with the perils on ay double, they still get the helm form protection so would summoning still be a viable tactic for eldar?

Some pink horros would be a good unit to hold an objective and get some extra warp charges

I believe that RAW they can still get it, but they had an update where it listed that they had access to sanctic and did not mention malefic, which strongly implies they're not intended to have malefic any more. I personally wouldn't try and get away with playing a summoning farseer as I could see why people would have a problem with it.

(please don't let turn this thread into another YMDC-style argument about whether they can or not though haha - I've seen it too many times...)

The blue scribes do look fun. I've literally just finished painting up my converted version of them (spare bits from the burning chariot kit can do them REALLY well). Sacrifice, cursed earth, incursion and possession are all terrific to get for free.

I quite like the look of the Tzeentch meta-detachment and their warpstorm table. Was thinking of running lorestealer host and heralds anarchic. A fair few of the results of the warpstorm table are great for boosting your summoning - particularly the 'harness on 3+ or 'all spells require one less warp charge'

I won't don't worry. Happy to go with a no, but I had curiosity on what was the general call.

Are Word Bearers worth it as a summoning army? In Traitor Legions they manifest conjurations on a 3+, but they still peril on a double unless a Daemon does it. It would be fluffy to summon with them though, no?

If were talking about the 'best' way to summon stuff, in terms of rules, I would propose a Codex: Inquisition force (still current rules) which I saw in a list on Dakka a while ago.

For 22 points you can get a ML1 psyker plus 2 acolytes as henchmen. For every 4 of those you have to take an inquisitor, but he can also be a ML1 psyker. Copy and paste until you hit your points limit. All can roll on Malefic as far as I know.

Its the best points per warp charge you can get. Who cares if they perils - you've got plenty left!

Spartacus wrote:
If were talking about the 'best' way to summon stuff, in terms of rules, I would propose a Codex: Inquisition force (still current rules) which I saw in a list on Dakka a while ago.

For 22 points you can get a ML1 psyker plus 2 acolytes as henchmen. For every 4 of those you have to take an inquisitor, but he can also be a ML1 psyker. Copy and paste until you hit your points limit. All can roll on Malefic as far as I know.

Its the best points per warp charge you can get. Who cares if they perils - you've got plenty left!

The Heralds Anarchic formation has you beat. You spend 45 points for a herald that generates 2 WCs that doesn't have an inquisitor tax and is an actual daemon so only perils on 6s.

With Regards to Psykanna Division...

75 - L2 Primaris Psyker

145 - [10] Wyrdvane Psykers w/ Commissar

145 - [10] Wyrdvane Psykers w/ Commissar

145 - [10] Wyrdvane Psykers w/ Commissar

Total - 510 pts

11 WC base, less 1 for each set of 5 dead Wyrds. On average, you get 9 successful harnesses. So, 4 dice, 4 dice, 3 dice should get you 2 or 3 successful summons, most of the time. [3/4 dice is 87%. 3/3 dice is 58%. 3/3 successful 3 WC Summon attempts 44% of the time.] Admittedly, those odds start to fall pretty quickly to executions and such, but that's life in the Guard... ammirite?

So that's 2-3 units summoned each turn, pretty reliably. Do that formation twice, and you've got 1020 points typically generating, what, about 500 to 800 points of Daemons each turn? Give or take? I don't actually know what daemons cost.That leaves you nearly enough points to buy a pair of Knights... So run those bad-boys up the field screaming at the top of your lungs while Deamons pour out of the nether all around them. You should be able to summon 5 Daemon units per turn, for the first 3 turns, anyhow. Basically, an army's worth of free Daemons over 3 turns, plus dudes to summon more, plus a pair of Knights to mess things up. Summon extra WC on the first turn to really crank out the hate on future turns. You're going to run out of models.

I did quite like the idea of word bearers for summoning - a sorceror with a spell familiar harnessing on 3+ rerolling is pretty reliable. Could be pretty durable too if you hid them in a R+H zombie blob or infantry platoon. The biggest drawback I see to them is that you have to pay for a cultist unit for every sorceror you take. I believe a word bearers sorc with a spell familiar has an 82% of harnessing a warp charge three summoning (after the re-roll). They would perils a lot though.

I'm not sure regarding whether inquisition psykers can take malefic or not. At one point there was an FAQ for the codex that stated their cheap psykers could use sanctic but didn't mention malefic (like farseers). I can't find that FAQ on the GW site anymore though, so I assume they've taken it down?

I suspect that the heralds anarchic does seem more efficient than inquisitors though.

I've not seen anyone use maxed-out psyker squads for the psykana before. I guess they'd be a fair bit more durable, particularly if they're hiding at the back. I guess they'd be pretty powerful allied with a horrors and heralds anarchic to feed them warp charge!

My biggest fear though would be people running a culexus assassin or sisters of silence in rhinos. I've noticed a lot of the top dogs running an assassin and one of my peeps runs 3 units of SoS in rhinos with his warcon list. He's been reliably killing the psyker heavy lists at our club...makes me feel a lot better about playing 'crons and tau. I'd continue with the IG theme and come up with some bubble wrap for the Psykanna Division. R&H will probably give you fits with wyverns dropping pie plates on the division's heads as well....just saying...something to consider.

Your Daemons are your bubble-wrap. A near endless supply of them.

For the shiggles, if you wanted a Renegade feel, look into the Dark Vengeance Cultist-leader-model. He's got a Commissar's jacket on, and would make a fantastic corrupted Commie. Cut off the shotgun and replace it with a Bolt Pistol

https://www.google.ca/search?q=dark+vengeance&tbm=isch&imgil=9jTc5boILJG9SM%253A%253BGzzhlugjqdG6WM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.games-workshop.com%25252Fen-NO%25252FDark-Vengeance-EN&source=iu&pf=m&fir=9jTc5boILJG9SM%253A%252CGzzhlugjqdG6WM%252C_&usg=__KQ3vyRYK805AY-cjzK3qV7vugoU%3D&biw=1280&bih=899&ved=0ahUKEwj1t6m5l4vTAhUg0IMKHY5cCUIQyjcILQ&ei=osTjWPXeJaCgjwSOuaWQBA#imgrc=9jTc5boILJG9SM:&spf=191